Good first Lap Steel? Joe Morrell?

[chesire]

Hey All,

My wife is looking at learning lap steel, so I've been keeping an eye out for a decent starter instrument on flea bay. Seems like the low priced models are Rogue, Artisan and a Joe Morrell student model.

Of those I like the Morrell because its USA made, but I wonder if anyone had any experience with the low level models?

I'm not willing to spend too much on it as she already plays three instruments and can be flighty about playing any of them.

Thank you in advance.

 

[dporto]

Make sure whatever you get, it's got at least a 24-25" scale length. Some of the cheapies are like 21" very difficult to play in tune with slants and whatnot - could be discouraging. The Goldtone (Ohahu copies) are very nice and not too expensive (I think you can find them in the $300 -$400 range used) - if you decide to get rid of it it will retain some resale value as well.

 

[hopper]

The Morrell is sort of a copy of the old Supro 'Student Deluxe', sometimes named just 'Deluxe', made by Valco (National, Supro, Airline..etc.), without the nice string through pickup. I looked at one several years ago and it was poorly made.

I have an Artisan, which I think is the same as the less expensive Rogue. It's ok for the price, but I wouldn't recommend it, very cheap components.

The SXs from Rondo look nice (I've never tried one). The one with the P90 pickup costs a little more, but seems worth the extra $10.

website link: http://www.rondomusic.com/lap2ash3ts.html

The string spacing on these is a uniform 3/8" from nut to bridge, which is preferable to a narrower spacing at the nut (my opinion). Scale length? Many not so low priced steels have ~23" scale length. They work for for me, but then, I'm a hack.

There's a lot of information here about lap steels:
http://www.well.com/~wellvis/steel.html

Sometimes lap steel is one word, lapsteel. It might help your search some to try that, or even 'Hawaiian guitar'...

Old ones used to be fairly inexpensive, but now they're 'vintage', so prices have gone up some.

 

[davguitar]

I have a Chandler in new near condition. I bought one to learn lap steel and I never have. These are $800 now factory direct, I believe.

 

[c.winn]

I have the P90 equipped SX lap steel. Great steel for the money, and the electronics as shipped aren't that bad - nice & even volume swells, and comfortable to play.

It ships with a nice gig bag, too - embroidered logo, deep storage pockets & good stitching. I'm way more impressed with the SX than the Artisan/Rogue, and for the money it beats my Morrell.

The only bonus for the Artisan/Rogue is that some of those come with the 3 leg built-in stand. I prefer to play on my lap, but if your wife wants to play with an instrument strapped to herself & alternate between the two, that is the ONLY thing the Artisan/Rogue has on the SX. Otherwise, the SX is a far superior steel.

 

[Edgar Allan Presley]

I've been learning c6 lap steel on my neighbor's Recording King guitar. It's inexpensive and nice enough to learn on. The pickup is wicked noisy, though besides the noise it sounds pretty good. I've played two gigs with it now and plan to use it for several more weeks while I round up the money for a good 8-string lap steel.

I've heard good things about the SX.

 

[chilipepper205]

I just got a Rogue lap steel about 3 weeks ago. I really like it, especially for the price. I have it setup with a set of GHS open G strings 016-058 (pretty heavy strings) and tune it to open D. I also really like the legs and gig bag that come with it.

When I look to upgrade, I will be looking at either a Gretsch or an Airline.

 

[RevMike]

I've had a morrell for about 13 years. I love it. Simple. Sounds good. Good to learn with.

 

[chesire]

I have the P90 equipped SX lap steel. Great steel for the money, and the electronics as shipped aren't that bad - nice & even volume swells, and comfortable to play. It ships with a nice gig bag, too - embroidered logo, deep storage pockets & good stitching. I'm way more impressed with the SX than the Artisan/Rogue, and for the money it beats my Morrell. The only bonus for the Artisan/Rogue is that some of those come with the 3 leg built-in stand. I prefer to play on my lap, but if your wife wants to play with an instrument strapped to herself & alternate between the two, that is the ONLY thing the Artisan/Rogue has on the SX. Otherwise, the SX is a far superior steel.

Thank you. Good observations.

 

[FenderGyrl]

I've had a morrell for about 13 years. I love it. Simple. Sounds good. Good to learn with.

+1 I have a 6 string and an 8 string. The tuning keys aren't the best, but they do the job.

 

[syrynx]

Short answer, from the perspective of someone who's been playing steel for 40 years: Of the inexpensive ready-made lap steels I've seen, the P90 version of the SX suggested by c.winn appears to me to be the least of the evils. But the least expensive way to get into lap steel is to put an extension nut (like (link removed) or (link removed)) on an existing guitar. (I have no connection with either manufacturer or either seller.)

Long answer: What you're looking for depends on what type(s) of music you want to play, what sounds you want to hear, and what obstacles the instrument might place in your path. You can't really know about the obstacles until you actually get a guitar under your hands, and find out how such factors as string spacing, scale length, pickup position(s), control position(s), and the instrument's construction affect your playing. So, to me, it would make sense to get an extension nut and either put it on a guitar you already own or an inexpensive one from craigslist. Let that guitar tell you whether you want wider or narrower string spacing, longer or shorter scale, something other than a single bridge pickup, etc.

Any six string electric or acoustic, no matter how unplayable it might be as a conventional guitar, should work just fine for a feasibility study. Personally, I'd love to have this one across my lap.

Some very good players go this route in preference to dedicated lap steels. Some examples:

Tom Gray has acknowledged owning a lot of pricy steel guitars, including a (link removed), a Moog lap steel, and "a shameful number" of vintage Rickenbacher/Rickenbackers. But the steel guitar he normally plays in his role as Delta Moon's frontman is a conventionally fretted guitar, a (link removed), fitted with a tall nut. Watch the whole clip; it heats up considerably after about 2:20.



Our TDPRI brother voided3 has several guitars which he has set up as lap steels. Here are clips of a few of them:





Cheshire, I think both you and your wife would probably learn a lot from (and enjoy) everything on Ed Ricco's YouTube channel. (So would anyone else who plays slide or lap steel, or just likes to listen to it.)

I practice what I preach. I own four Fender steel guitars, and love 'em, every one, but most of my lap steel playing for the last several years has been on flattop acoustic guitars (three of them) with extension nuts and magnetic sound hole pickups.

 

[nomadh]

Crazy for a beginner to do anything other than an ext nut. If you want a lap steel put your guitar on your lap. Solved.

 

[jjkrause84]

I went with a vintage guyatone for my first (well, only) lap steel. It wasn't too expensive, and if I ever decide to give up I can sell it and get my money back. No point in spending money on a cheap instrument that you won't be able to sell later, in my view. Resale value is the difference between money invested and money thrown down the toilet.

 

[gitold]

I have a Morrell and it's fun and only cost $100 used. The pickup sounds great , the tuners are the absolute worst tuners I have ever had on any guitar bar none. It does stay in tune but it's a bich getting it there. The bridge is just a piece of bent steel with no slots so when you pick aggressively the string slide on the bridge. I'll get around to fixing these problems one of these days but I sure wouldn't pay more than $100 for one.

 

[chesire]

Thanks for all the info all. I'd go with a regular guitar and a modified but my wife wants the smaller size and its her thing.

 

[c.winn]

I have a few reasons why I wouldn't suggest someone just convert a regular electric into a lap steel:

- spacing at the nut is too narrow

- if your "extension nut" extends beyond the edges of the fingerboard at the first few frets, it can be disorienting to new players

- spacing art the upper frets is too narrow

- action too low without a new setup at the bridge

- neck is too thin resting on the players lap

- body is too large across the players lap

- too dang busy. Lap steels are beautiful in their simplicity, not in their 5-way switches & multiple pickups.

You could pay a tech $100 to setup a decent Tele with a new nut, new spacing, adjusted bridge & pickup heights & new strings, or you could spend $100 on a decent SX steel.

There's just something about the feel of a different instrument to put you in a different creative space, and at the relatively inexpensive price of $100, it's a fun and reasonable way to step into that new creative space without much lost. Plus, it comes with a gig bag.

 

[syrynx]

Thanks for all the info all. I'd go with a regular guitar and a modified but my wife wants the smaller size and its her thing.

In that case, the SX Lap 1 looks to me like the least problematic choice of the current offerings. (Unless I missed it, the SX with the P90 doesn't seem to be available at the moment.) Good luck to you and your wife, whatever your decision!

I have a few reasons why I wouldn't suggest someone just convert a regular electric into a lap steel:

You don't need to; I already did.

- if your "extension nut" extends beyond the edges of the fingerboard at the first few frets, it can be disorienting to new players

This is true. IMO, better to know whether this is a problem sooner rather than later, in order to make an informed decision on a keeper lap steel.

- action too low without a new setup at the bridge

I've never needed the bridge raised. If you do, it's possible that you're exerting too much downward pressure on the bar, or you need higher string tension, or both.

I strongly recommend against a taller bridge saddle on an acoustic, based on personal experience:

My first acoustic lap steel, a 1959 Martin 0-15, needed a neck reset even before I bought it in 1982 (that's why I was able to afford it). The bridge itself had been cut down to lower the action, and the saddle itself was no thicker than a matchstick. The bass string end of the saddle had twisted over the years, and the guitar had lost a lot of its bottom-end richness.

About three and a half years ago, I took the guitar to a luthier, who routed the saddle slot deeper and installed a new Martin bone saddle. Thinking he was doing me a favor, he left the saddle at full height. He also did not glue the saddle into the slot.

The guitar sounded wonderful. But a few months later, as I was tuning the guitar, the bridge broke. A chunk of rosewood a bit longer than the saddle went flying across the room from the area between the saddle and the soundhole. The tall saddle had acted as a lever with the fulcrum in the bottom of the slot, multiplying the force of the string tension. (The string tension wasn't particularly high, either: .012 to .052, tuned to DADF#AD on a 24.9" scale-- far lighter than many players use.)

A scary half hour later, I finally found the missing chunk of rosewood. Happily, it was a single piece (no missing splinters). The luthier made an invisible repair. He also, at my request, lowered the saddle height to just above the height of the bridge itself, and glued the saddle in place. The guitar now sounds better than I'd ever heard it in our previous 31 years together. Happily, the luthier saw the break as his responsibility, and performed the repairs without charging me. But if I hadn't been able to find the missing piece of rosewood, I'd have been looking at replacement of the entire bridge, which on an old Martin is BIG bucks.

- spacing at the nut is too narrow

- spacing art the upper frets is too narrow

- neck is too thin resting on the players lap

- body is too large across the players lap

These may be issues for you; if so, I'm sorry to hear it.

They are not issues for me, and they don't seem to be issues for Tom Gray or Ed Ricco or other widely respected lap steel players.

- too dang busy. Lap steels are beautiful in their simplicity, not in their 5-way switches & multiple pickups.

That's an aesthetic judgment which I'm not qualified to make for anyone but me, and you're not qualified to make for anyone but you.

FWIW, our tastes are probably similar. The two lap steels occupying most of my time these days are the Martin 0-15 mentioned above and a '60s Harmony H165. They're both all mahogany except for the rosewood fingerboards; there's not even any body binding. Not even a single knob to clutter the appearance.

But just who do you think you are to challenge our TDPRI brother jmiles's Lapdancer Tele and Orpheum?!

You could pay a tech $100 to setup a decent Tele with a new nut, new spacing, adjusted bridge & pickup heights & new strings, or you could spend $100 on a decent SX steel.

This argument is specious. Any steel string guitar, acoustic or electric, needs only an extension nut and possibly a new set of strings to become a lap steel. Look again (or perhaps for the first time) at the second of Ed Ricco's clips I linked above, and read his comments:

Be kind as I only have been playing with a bar for two days (haha). I want to get more into lap-style slide playing, but I can't afford a lap steel and square neck resonator at the moment, so here's my low budget 1920's-style solution: my $80 Yamaha dreadnought with a nut extender, and my $68 First Act with a nut extender. The extenders were $4.25 a pop; money well spent.

I don't know whether cheshire's location ("The Ol' Pueblo") means the city in Colorado or not. But the Pueblo, CO craigslist (link removed). With its single bridge pickup and two knobs, it is as "beautiful in its simplicity" as an SX lap 1 (and nearly identical to Ed Ricco's First Act). I think it offers more bang for the buck as a first lap steel than the SX or any of the other dedicated lap steels currently available. And it would be much easier to recover the initial investment, after deciding either to abandon lap steel or to find a better instrument, simply because there are far more wannabe guitar players than wannabe steel players.

 

[tele salivas]

I have a White pearloid Jersey Lightning that I purchased "scratch and Dent" from Musicians Friends several years ago. I liked it enough to step up and purchase a pedal steel. The Jersey Lightning is a good lap steel that stays in tune and sounds great. Since I got the pedal steel, I don't play lap anymore. PM me if your interested. I'd give you a heck of a deal, comes with a good looking padded bag.
Here's Doug Beaumier playing a little ditty...

 

[chesire]

I have a White pearloid Jersey Lightning that I purchased "scratch and Dent" from Musicians Friends several years ago. I liked it enough to step up and purchase a pedal steel. The Jersey Lightning is a good lap steel that stays in tune and sounds great. Since I got the pedal steel, I don't play lap anymore. PM me if your interested. I'd give you a heck of a deal, comes with a good looking padded bag.
Here's Doug Beaumier playing a little ditty...

Hey Tele Salivas, that sounds like a perfect solution. I'll shoot you a message.

 

[chesire]

I don't know whether cheshire's location ("The Ol' Pueblo") means the city in Colorado or not. But the Pueblo, CO craigslist (link removed). With its single bridge pickup and two knobs, it is as "beautiful in its simplicity" as an SX lap 1 (and nearly identical to Ed Ricco's First Act). I think it offers more bang for the buck as a first lap steel than the SX or any of the other dedicated lap steels currently available. And it would be much easier to recover the initial investment, after deciding either to abandon lap steel or to find a better instrument, simply because there are far more wannabe guitar players than wannabe steel players.

Thanks Syrnx. I appreciate all the info in your post.

"The Ol' / Old Pueblo" is actually an affectionate term locals and natives use for Tucson, AZ. The city itself is very old by US standards and the area has been continually occupied by people for thousands of years.

Here's the TMI explanation per Wikipedia:

Tucson is commonly known as "The Old Pueblo". While the exact origin of this nickname is uncertain, it is commonly traced back to Mayor R. N. "Bob" Leatherwood. When rail service was established to the city on March 20, 1880, Leatherwood celebrated the fact by sending telegrams to various leaders, including the President of the United States and the Pope, announcing that the "ancient and honorable pueblo" of Tucson was now connected by rail to the outside world. The term became popular with newspaper writers who often abbreviated it as "A. and H. Pueblo". This in turn transformed into the current form of "The Old Pueblo".[9]

thanks again