misread the OPs post
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Good budget 12 string for recording under $500
- Thread starter ETMusic777
- Start date
Freeman Keller
Doctor of Teleocity
The whole subject of acoustic twelve strings is really very complex. Do you want to tune to concert pitch for the Byrds jingle jangle or down one or two or more semi tones for Leo Kottke roar. Do you strum, finger pick, play cowboy chords, play up the neck. Open tunings?
The big problem with many used and/or inexpensive 12 string is that they need a neck reset. Learn how to evaluate any acoustic guitar that you are thinking of buying and understand what it costs to fix things like neck geometry, frets, broken stuff. Know that some guitars, like old Yamahas are almost impossible to reset.
In many respects I think it is far better to buy a new budget 12 string - Seagull S12, Taylor 150, Martin DX than a used one with issues. Taylor and Guild are probably making the best 12 strings today but they will be spendy.
These are all acoustic 12 strings but they are very different. The D12-28 has had a neck reset and a bunch of other work and is for sale.
The big problem with many used and/or inexpensive 12 string is that they need a neck reset. Learn how to evaluate any acoustic guitar that you are thinking of buying and understand what it costs to fix things like neck geometry, frets, broken stuff. Know that some guitars, like old Yamahas are almost impossible to reset.
In many respects I think it is far better to buy a new budget 12 string - Seagull S12, Taylor 150, Martin DX than a used one with issues. Taylor and Guild are probably making the best 12 strings today but they will be spendy.
These are all acoustic 12 strings but they are very different. The D12-28 has had a neck reset and a bunch of other work and is for sale.
I'm a huge fan of Rod Stewart's late '60s/early '70s work with Faces and solo. "Maggie May", "Gasoline Alley", and "Every Picture..." basically influenced the formation of the ideal acoustic 12-string sound in my head.
About 10 years ago, I went looking for an affordable acoustic 12-string. Each one I found -- Martin, Yamaha, Takamine, etc. -- had a beautiful lush sound that didn't sit well with me. I didn't want lush and pretty... I wanted more of that thrashy/trashy sound of the early Rod Stewart/Faces recordings. Lo and behold, I came across a Guild D-125-12 -- all mahogany -- which was the cheapest Guild at a local store. I almost didn't try it out but I sure am glad I did because THAT was the sound I was looking for. I bought it.
I don't know how much they go for now used or new but I would highly recommend that particular model. It can sound lush and sweet, but it also rocks. I often look for any excuse to use it on my recordings, even as a background flavour, because it sounds so good.
ETMusic777
Tele-Meister
I will put something up there in the forum. The story is that I learned on tape in the 90s when it was on its decline in use in recording studios. I did a lot of razor blade editing working in college radio. I then went to MTSU for a couple of years in the mid 90s and studied in their music industry program which is a great program, and we used an Otar MTR 90 and SSL board there. After that in the early 00s, I worked for Aardvark audio (don't hate on me for that) as their Sales Manager until they went under in 2003 due to some management issues. Igor Levin, who I worked for is an electronics genius, and has formed Antelope Audio in Bulgaria since then, however it appears that Antelope is plagued with many of the same issues that Aardvark had, which was great digital hardware but not so great drivers and tech support.
So at that point, in 2003, I was pretty well versed on digital and analog production, but I got out of the audio industry and worked in sales in other industries since then. In 2010 or so, I bought a 1987 Sony/MCI JH-24 along with Autolocator III for only $1000 for a studio in Burbank. It was a great sounding machine, but a pain in the neck to haul around at 650 lbs (!) and the size of a large washing machine. I used that from 2010 to 2018 when I moved in to my current apartment on Sunset Blvd. which has a small room in it which I am using for a studio. So I sold the JH-24 to Chris Mara for $2500 and he probably recapped it and sold it to someone for at least $10K, which is his business under Mara Machines. The JH-24 is the sound of rock and roll, but mine had some small issues and I was tired of lugging it around and putting money in to it fix small issues.
I was without a tape machine for a few years but earlier in 2022, I bought an Otari MTR-12 1/2" 4 track from a guy out in Hisperia. It came from a studio in LA and he was using it for hip hop. Its a well maintained unit. I just started working with it recently and its sounding great. The transport is rock solid. I sync it to my DAW using an Aardvark TimeSync II which takes SMPTE from a track on the MTR-12 and converts it to stable MTC and Word Clock. That goes to an RME UFXII and then to my DAW which is (believe it or not) running an old version of Sonar 7. I've tried Pro Tools, but Sonar does everything that I want it to do, is very easy to work with and still after 20 years has probably the best MIDI editing out there. Sonar got sold to some other company and is now a shell of its former self unfortunately.
Here is a video of the recording setup below. This machine does a max of 15ips and in the video, I was laying down SMPTE at 18 ips using the vary speed. Most MTR-12s can do up to 30ips but this one came from the factory with a top speed of 15 ips. I did some testing and settled on using 15 ips, so ultimately what is in the video is not the speed that I am using to record with. At 15 ips, the noise floor is very low with no hiss, and it has a great low frequency bump for bass guitar. I am using IEC EQ. Otaris are very quiet machines.
The MTR-12 routed through a vintage Ramsa board, synced to the RME with the TimeSync II and then in to the DAW. I am recording to the tape using a 3 mic setup on my vintage BF Pro Reverb. I use an SM57 on one of the 12" Utah speakers. A Sennheiser MK416 very directional Condensor (normally a great voice over mic) on the other 12" speaker. The room mic is an Audio-Technica AT4033. All of that goes to 3 channels on the Otari and I drive the needles heavily in to the red to get tape saturation. The 4th track on the Otari is for the SMPTE time code. There is a time code card available for the MTR-12 which can be found used on Ebay but at this time I don't need it. Three tracks is fine for a home studio setup. I am very pleased with the sound quality that I am getting. I am working on 20 songs which are slowly coming together which I will release in 2 albums, with the goal of April 2023 release date. Sound is rock-pop, pretty accessible but with some originality to it, and depth. Lots of guitar and bass. Vocal harmonies etc.
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ETMusic777
Tele-Meister
Thanks I am very much looking at this 12. Tomorrow I plan to go over to a local GC and check one out that they have listed as used.
bottlenecker
Poster Extraordinaire
I mostly used cassette 4 tracks in the 80s and 90s (started as a teenager), but I did get to spend a little time with a 16 track 1" otari machine in the 90s. I've always wanted a good tape setup, but in the 2000s DAW sucked me in with it's cheapness and ability, and slowly I let go of my dream of a big tape machine... mostly.
Like you, I use "vintage" digital. I'm using sonar 8 producer, and an edirol (roland) interface from when they owned cakewalk. Mostly because I hate subscription models and developers rearranging my tools.
ETMusic777
Tele-Meister
Cool. I know Edirol because we used to compete against them when I sold Aardvark. The Aardvark interfaces were the first ever to integrate mic preamps on the front panel. We did that before anyone. Before Pro Tools, M-Audio, Edirol or anyone. Unfortuantely Aardvark blew up due to the owners having a legal dispute and the drivers not working because they based the DSP on a Motorola chipset which was discontinued and the new PC motherboards in the early 00s were incompatible with the Motorola chipset. So anyone who bought an Aardvark unit in about 2002 was screwed because it was nearly impossible to get the drivers to work with the chipset. The company was small and did not have the financial resources to be able to redesign the hardware around a different DSP so they went under. I got out before the entire thing went under. It was a tough time. That said, the hardware, when working was very innovative.
Just an FYI a 2 track Otari MTR 12 went up last night on ebay for $1500 and it comes with lots of goodies.
Edit: Too late, the Otari just sold in the past hour and is now gone! Good deals go fast. I paid $1400 for mine earlier this year and that is the sweetspot for a good MTR 12 deal.
northernguitar
Poster Extraordinaire
I just bought this for USD$500 used. It plays with and sounds big and rich. I haven’t tried the Fishman pickup yet.
bottlenecker
Poster Extraordinaire
As far as I know, edirol was just roland, and they were trying to tie it in to cakewalk/sonar. When I bought the interface roland was on sonar 6. Sonar 8 was the last upgrade anyone could talk me into. The drivers are still available for my interface on roland's site, and I use a computer that hasn't been online since loading that driver.
I won't be jumping on a tape machine right now, but I'd love to start with a good 1/4" stereo machine eventually. I'm familiar with mara from tape op magazine, but I can't afford that stuff.
ETMusic777
Tele-Meister
Which Martin is that....DX2? I love the Martin sound which is great for recording.
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I have an Epiphone I got for around $300.Once it was set up,it's a joy to play.
northernguitar
Poster Extraordinaire
It’s the D-X2E. A poor man’s Martin. It’s a true joy to play.
NGD: Martin D-X2E 12 String
The GAS got me good and quick for a 12-string. This popped up locally for the right price. After a fretboard cleaning, fret polish and restring, it looks and feels like new. I’ve never played a 12 with such low action. Barre chording isn’t a chore. Capo sits nicely up the very thin neck...
ETMusic777
Tele-Meister
Well, here is what I went with, a vintage MIJ Alveraz 5054. Guitar Center used had it listed at $329.99. Shipping is $23.55 and CA tax is $33.55. Total is $386.68. I did some research on this model and its likely a 70s or 80s made in Japan. Supposedly these are Spruce top with Rosewood back and sides.
Here are the photos of it from GC website below. Scott Grove has a review up and he spoke highly of it, especially the part about great action and solid bridge. His review is below, along with a couple others that I found. It seems to have a balanced, even tone which is what I am looking for to record with.
I will call the GC store tomorrow and ask them to throw in a free case with it, sometimes they do that or one may be available for it anyway. There are several of these on Ebay in the $300-400 price range and one other on Guitar Center used right now. So if I dont like it, I have 45 days to return it to a GC and in the long run it probably won't lose much if any value.
Here are the photos of it from GC website below. Scott Grove has a review up and he spoke highly of it, especially the part about great action and solid bridge. His review is below, along with a couple others that I found. It seems to have a balanced, even tone which is what I am looking for to record with.
I will call the GC store tomorrow and ask them to throw in a free case with it, sometimes they do that or one may be available for it anyway. There are several of these on Ebay in the $300-400 price range and one other on Guitar Center used right now. So if I dont like it, I have 45 days to return it to a GC and in the long run it probably won't lose much if any value.
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Dan German
Doctor of Teleocity
Nice. MIJ Alvarez are really nice. I came on here to suggest a new Seagull or a used Takamine (I have one I love to death), but it looks like you found something equally good. The only reason I wouldn’t have suggested Alvarez is that I have so rarely seen one for sale.
ahiddentableau
Tele-Afflicted
Excellent! My fav acoustic is an MIJ Alvarez. They're great sounding guitars. Hard to believe you got an MIJ for that price.
An old Alvarez would be my first choice but 12 string guitars have more neck / action issues than 6 string guitars. If you can find an old Alvarez with a nice action and a truss rod that's fully functional don't think twice. Go for it. If not, in your price range, you'll need to be OK with a little less tonality in exchange for decent playability and, I know for a fact that, when playing a 12 string, play ability counts for more than anything else. Don't let a salesman convince you that you'll get used to having to crush your fingertips down on the fingerboard. I own three 12 strings. A Martin and a Breedlove acoustic and a Rickenbacker electric. No matter how good they sound if you can easily play them they're worthless. My first 12 string was an Alvarez I purchased in 1975 and it followed me from base to base while serving in the U. S. Navy. It became my ultimate songwriting instrument. It's the reason I own my current 12 strings. For my use no guitar delivers inspiration to write new material the way a 12 string does. It might take some looking to find one in your price range but I'm sure there's one waiting for you to find it. Just don't let " Oh that sounds so good", be the determining factor. It can sound like angels from heaven but, if you can easily play it, you'll never reap the benefits of owning a 12 string.
ETMusic777
Tele-Meister
Thank you! There is one other at GC used right now for $339 in the La Mesa store and a couple other old Alveraz models listed for even less than that.
Thanks! There is another 5054 on GC used right now for $339 and a few others on Ebay. I hope this works out and the bridge is fine on it. I've been listening to youtube videos of vintage Alveraz 12s today and they sound great. I spend too much time on Ebay.
Here is a guy favorably comparing a vintage Alveraz to a vintage Martin:
Dan German
Doctor of Teleocity
Thank you! There is one other at GC used right now for $339 in the La Mesa store and a couple other old Alveraz models listed for even less than that.
Thanks! There is another 5054 on GC used right now for $339 and a few others on Ebay. I hope this works out and the bridge is fine on it. I've been listening to youtube videos of vintage Alveraz 12s today and they sound great. I spend too much time on Ebay.
I mostly learned to play on an early ‘70s Alvarez 6 string that my sister got for Christmas ‘74. Spruce top, flame maple back and sides. She still has it, I still want it.
Maybe Danelectro would work for you
danelectro.com
12 String & Baritone | Danelectro Guitars
danelectro.com
