Going to Scrap My Scraper

Discussion in 'Tele Home Depot' started by R. Stratenstein, Dec 2, 2012.

  1. Rich Rice

    Rich Rice Poster Extraordinaire

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    Ha! We match!! Those things show no mercy.
     
  2. marvinjensen

    marvinjensen TDPRI Member

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    I couldn't get that video to play but +1 on what Codger says above. Square edge is the key, then roll the hook over.

    Another trick that Ken Parker showed me is to make scrapers out of the thin Japanese saws, cut into egg shapes, slightly convex edges, etc. (you can use a plate shear), grind them to final shape with a disc sander, hone the edges square with a stone. Don't put a hook on it. The beauty of these is they bend and can be used for almost any concave scraping. That's the way he finishes out the fronts/backs on his archtop acoustic guitars and how he did most of the final shaping on the Parker Fly. The key is they are flexible. I have some of the rigid scrapers of various shapes and have never used them.

    P.S. My favorite flexible scrapers were made out of the Japanese saws that are .0115" thick.
     
  3. marvinjensen

    marvinjensen TDPRI Member

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    Pic of two of my favorite scrapers.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. MonkeyKing

    MonkeyKing Tele-Meister

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    I just did this today!
    I file the edge like a knife blade on one side
    put it in the vice
    run the crown burnisher over it -it takes me 4 or 5 times to get the hook right
    feel with your hand for the hook - it was on the opposite side than I was aiming for
    I`ve tried everything from a screwdriver to a fine katana blade, and the burnisher works super for me.
    hang in there
    I just got into this in the last 6 months, but I`d never go back to scraperlessness.
     
  5. marvinjensen

    marvinjensen TDPRI Member

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    P.S. A mill smooth file works pretty well if you "draw file". Clamp the scraper in a vise, hold the handle of the file in your left hand, the end of it in your right, Hold it at exactly 90 degrees to the scraper,(and at a right angles to the long edge of the scraper), place the file on the front edge of the scraper and pull it back towards you. This makes for a pretty smooth cut as the "teeth" of the file do a "slicing" action. You can get away with rolling your hook at this point or use a stone to smooth it out even more.

    BTW, I have a Sandvik cabinet scraper and it seems to be of a good quality.
     
  6. flatfive

    flatfive Friend of Leo's

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    This is what I do, too, but sometimes using a sharpening
    stone as well.

    Unfortunately, for me, the results are hit and miss. Sometimes
    the scraper pulls beautiful little shavings, and sometimes it's just
    dust. It's a little frustrating because I don't know what I did
    differently when I get good results.

    Still, I really like using the scraper. In many situations it's
    much better than sanding, because with sanding you have
    to go through the grits, and sometimes learn on a fine grit
    that you didn't sand enough with an intermediate grit.

    With the scraper you just get a beautiful surface. And no
    sawdust.


     
  7. marvinjensen

    marvinjensen TDPRI Member

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    My guess is, when you get a nice edge you have filed/honed it down far enough and at 90 degrees to have a nice sharp hard edge and are then able to roll a nice hook. When it doesn't work I would say not enough filing/honing and or not a nice crisp, sharp 90 Degree edge.
     
  8. Bentley

    Bentley Friend of Leo's

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    I'm pretty sure you need a bur, or a "hook", but i'm not sure thats for scrapers..
     
  9. Moldy Oldy

    Moldy Oldy Tele-Meister Ad Free Member

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    +1. You're probably not getting a consistent edge before you try rolliing.

    I apologize in advance for what's to follow, but I'm a file nut and I can't help myself...

    To get a good edge, you need a clean, fine, sharp file. If your file has been banging around in a drawer full of other files for a while, it's probably not sharp. Also, it needs to be a "single-cut" file, which means the teeth are just angled lines across the face. A double-cut file (which you don't want) has teeth in a cross-hatch pattern.

    Here's where it can get confusing... for mill files, the fineness or courseness of the teeth are commonly graded in three steps. The most course are "bastard" files. The medium ones are called "2nd-cut" files and the finest teeth are "Smooth" files. Also, the size of teeth on files is graded relative to the length of the file, so for example a bastard file that's 6 inches long has much finer teeth than a 10-inch bastard file, so a smaller file works better. For filing hard metal such as a scraper blade, you want to use finer teeth.

    Also, get a file card and use it. I clean my files before every use and as required during use. If your file has a bunch of metal filings stuck in the teeth it will not cut smoothly or quickly.

    When I file scrapers, I use a sharp 4 inch "single-cut" (the style of teeth) "2nd-cut" (i.e., medium courseness) mill file. When I draw the file across the edge of the scraper, my offcut is one long thread, not a bunch of little filings or slivers. It only takes 2 or 3 strokes to make a perfectly square flat edge.

    For technique, you want to draw the file across the edge. If you're not familiar with draw filing, look here at about the 1:00 mark.



    Concentrate on holding the file level to ensure a flat edge. And one other thing. The file will only cut in one direction. If you're doing this you're just ruining your file.



    Pick the file up on the return stroke. It should only touch the work on the cutting stroke.


    Obviously lots of people do fine without all the fussiness I've just shared. But if you do this, I guarantee that with a little practice you will get good consistent results and it will take less than a minute to sharpen your scraper.


    Back to the OP's issue...

    Rick, how about posting a 2 minute video showing your filing, rolling and scraping technique. I'll bet someone here will be able to spot your problem.
     
  10. flatfive

    flatfive Friend of Leo's

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    marvin and Moldy Oldy -- thanks for the good info, guys.
     
  11. Bentley

    Bentley Friend of Leo's

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    Or just use a file.
     
  12. marvinjensen

    marvinjensen TDPRI Member

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    DUH, at age 15 I would guess that you've played more video games on your puter than actually "done" anything! :rolleyes:
     
  13. R. Stratenstein

    R. Stratenstein Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Thanks for all the responses, everyone. It's somewhat comforting to see some pretty dang good craftsmen here admit they aren't doing a whole lot better than me. But it is also frustrating to see all the people talk about how great they are, and how easy it is, how it saves half your finishing time, etc. etc. etc. I want some of that!

    Must be like learning to ride a bike, I guess--you develop your own sense of feel for it, but maybe get a few bumps and bruises along the way.

    I watched both videos (again--they were in my original review), and I also watched the filing video. Good info.

    The scraper I have is a Bahco 474, Swedish card scraper from Highland Woodworking. I think it's pretty high quality. Description says it has a high nickel content and is hardened, so maybe that's part of the problem, I need to work at a bit harder.

    The burnisher-thing came with instructions that recommended that you cut a shelf on a flat block, so your file can sit on the shelf, making it perpendicular to the card's edge when laid on the block surface, to ensure you've got a good 90-degree edge. Seems like a lot of guys just hand file the edge, how critical is it to have a perfect 90-degrees?

    The file I used at first, is an old file I found in my Dad's stuff, made specifically for filing scrapers. But it was a bit rusty, after I cleaned it up, it seemed to still have some bite, but maybe that's a problem. I used another fine-cut (but double-cut) file to joint the edge and sides, then cleaned it up on a new diamond stone. The diamond stone does not feel as fine as I'd expected, so again, maybe I need to re-examine the file and stone.

    I like the idea of the video. If I get a chance this weekend, I'll shoot one if a new file and fine stone don't solve the problem for me.

    Thanks again for the responses, everyone!

    Rick.
     
  14. Jim Beam

    Jim Beam Tele-Meister

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    +1

    The frustrating thing for me is that I've watched or read at least 6 "experts" explain how to do this, and each one of them is different.

    So I suppose, like with so many things in life, you just stumble around trying different things until you find something that works for you. Which is OK I guess, but sometimes all that stumbling gets a little frustrating.
     
  15. Bentley

    Bentley Friend of Leo's

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    I take that somewhat offensively, I actually don't remember the last time I played computer games. I've done many things that I like to think are quite reasonable accomplishments! Also, if I may point out, you're on the computer too!
     
  16. marvinjensen

    marvinjensen TDPRI Member

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    Point well taken. But it does make me wonder when someone like Moldy Oldy posts a very well written comprehensive post like he did and you choose to belittle it rather than learn from it.
     
  17. tmbrennand

    tmbrennand TDPRI Member

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    Get a Carruth scraper from SM. A great tool, no flexing, stays sharp longer and is easy to resharpen. My 2 cents.....
     
  18. Moldy Oldy

    Moldy Oldy Tele-Meister Ad Free Member

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    It's not that critical. By draw filing you can easily get within 3 or 4 degrees by eye.

    Draw filing should shear off long threads. If your scraper file is doing that, you're golden. Otherwise it's not sharp enough. The diamond stone seems like a lot of trouble. You will need to make some sort of jig (a square block of wood?) to be sure you're holding at the exact same angle on every stroke or else you're rounding the edge. If you make one bad stroke you have to start over to get it back to flat.

    I didn't mention before, but after you get the edge flat you want to make a swipe on each side to remove the slight burr that the draw filing left. That might be a good use for the stone. Lay the scraper down flat on the stone and work it a little to remove that burr. You can feel the burr with your finger if you haven't gotten it all.

    When you're done filing and before rolling, the edge of the scraper will feel quite sharp. If you slide it across your skin you will get a nice deep cut (don't ask).
     
  19. R. Stratenstein

    R. Stratenstein Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Dave, the instructions that describe making the block for the file, also tell you to saw the block with 90 degree surfaces to each other, so you can use the block to hold the scrapers edge perfectly perpendicular to the diamond stone, but again, who knows where my technique may be failing! Draw filing sounds like a winner, and likely won't need to do any cleaning up with a stone, if the filing goes well.

    When I had the scraper clamped in the vise, and I was shoving down hard on the burnisher, the thought crossed my mind, "man, I bet that would leave a mark if I slipped and ran my hand or forearm down onto that thing!" Sounds like you, Rich Rice, and a couple of other guys discovered that already! Hope to avoid same.
     
  20. Rich Rice

    Rich Rice Poster Extraordinaire

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    I've found I have better luck with a higher number of lighter strokes, and less chance of another nasty gash. Once my scraper gets a good edge it lasts a fairly long time. It has been a while since I sharpened it. I bought a whole set of different size/shaped scrapers, and really only use two of 'em. One straight, one curved.
     
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