Gibson Norlin Era -- when exactly did the quality start to decline?

[WilburBufferson]

I've read that what became the Norlin company acquired Gibson in 1969, but some start the Norlin era at 1970. Would a 1969 Gibson guitar be regarded more favorably than a 1970 equivalent? I've also read that Gibson started having troubles in the mid 60s and the employees weren't happy before Norlin took over, so this delineation of 69/70 might be meaningless. I'm asking because I am looking at a 1969 and am curious about its perceived value, independent of whether the guitar is an A+ or D- player.

 

[Milspec]

I think it depends on if you are talking acoustic or electric.

For electrics, I consider '67 to be the dividing line as that was the year Seth Lover left Gibson to work for Leo.

 

[fenderchamp]

Look at prices on reverb and look at retail vintage Gibson prices. At this point ain’t none of it losing value or all that cheap

 

[stnmtthw]

I suggest to play it if you can. An old guitar just feels right or it doesn't.

 

[NoTeleBob]

I believe you have the two answers you need, above.

Look at sales. That's all that matters in terms of dollar value. Opinions on quality are irrelevant... it's actual sales that matter.

In terms of playing quality, you have to try them. Like any other older guitars. Old doesn't always mean fabulous. Some Norlins are very good. Some aren't.

But honestly, the kinds or problems people complained about at the time with the Norlins - binding not scraped properly, pin size imperfection in the finish, minor glue visible at the neck joint, etc - are meaningless with this many years on the guitars. Wear issues have far outpaced any trivial Norlin based complaints.

 

[msalama]

It's not that clear cut. I own two Norlin Gibsons myself, a '73 Lester Deluxe and a '75 Melody Maked D, and they're both great guitars, although the LP is heavy. But I've got a strong back, so no complaints

And just for comparison, Fender's quality suffered much more than Gibson's as the 70's progressed, IMO. You can still find good late 70's Gibbies every now and then, but good luck trying to find, say, a first-rate '79 Strat because they really are few and far between. Just my $0.002 though...

 

[msalama]

suggest to play it if you can

Exactly. If it's good, it'll manifest its innate quality to you; and if not, that'll be apparent too.

 

[gitold]

I have a 69 Epi and a 70 Gibson and they are great guitars. The way I remember (as I was going to guitar shops in the late 60’s and 70’s) was after 74 or so Fenders were by and large pretty bad except for their bass guitars and Gibson was more bad ideas and design as opposed to bad quality.

 

[brookdalebill]

1969, IMO.

 

[msalama]

@gitold: I was just a kid back then myself but retrospectively that's what I think too, although excepting the 70's Tele Deluxes and Customs which IME tend to be pretty good, at least before '76-77 or thereabouts. But yeah, I agree, Gibson made more iffy design decisions whereas Fender screwed up their production worse, that's about it.

 

[brookdalebill]

1969, IMO.

1969 was when Les Pauls lost the long neck tenon, the bodies became “sandwiched”, the tops (again) became randomly joined 3 or 4 piece maple, necks got shallower in depth, and headstocks got bigger.
The guitars in general became heavier, and far less attractive, IMO.
Necks generally were already 1 9/16 inch, instead of 1 11/16 inch, and nickel hardware was replaced by (tacky) chrome (circa 1964-65).
Gibson languished until Hank Juszkiewicz resurrected the company circa 83-84.
He doesn’t get much credit for that.
He also arguably tanked the company before his ouster/buyout.

 

[stxrus]

My ‘74 Special is a fantastic guitar. The downside of most Norlin era guitars, IMO, was primarily the weight and some QC issues.
I’ve had several real boat anchors the weren’t much heavier than my ‘71 LP Deluxe. That sucker came in just under 12.5 pounds.

 

[Swirling Snow]

Start here:

http://www.latesixtieslespauls.com

If you have more questions, track down Big Al on the Les Paul Forum.

What you've heard here is basically right, though. And Gibson always had QC problem... naw, they had no QC. The dealers were expected to have a repairman on site for incoming setups. But Norlin was an investor - they poured money into the company and brought back the Les Paul model and the man. The Seventies were just horrible years for cars, guitars, and fashion. ;P

 

[stxrus]

Start here:

http://www.latesixtieslespauls.com

If you have more questions, track down Big Al on the Les Paul Forum.

What you've heard here is basically right, though. And Gibson always had QC problem... naw, they had no QC. The dealers were expected to have a repairman on site for incoming setups. But Norlin was an investor - they poured money into the company and brought back the Les Paul model and the man. The Seventies were just horrible years for cars, guitars, and fashion. ;P

This. Big Al was always eager to help and a font of LP knowledge

 

[posttoastie]

 

[badinfinities]

Yeah, the pancake bodies get a bad rap. My 78 standard is a one-piece body. From what I understand, sometime in late '76-early '77, Gibson switched to one-piece bodies for Deluxes and Standards (not sure about Customs.)
Other than the oversized headstock and the anchor weight (10 lbs), it's a great player with lots of sustain.

 

[Peegoo]

Gibson made dogs in the 50s and 60s too. The perception that their quality tangibly slipped is primarily due to Norlin making major changes in production methods to lower costs and waste less wood.

The same can be said for Fender when it sold to CBS. Fender made good guitars and bad guitars from the 50s through the mid 60s. After CBS took over, they made some good guitars and some bad guitars too.

 

[schmee]

I've read that what became the Norlin company acquired Gibson in 1969, but some start the Norlin era at 1970. Would a 1969 Gibson guitar be regarded more favorably than a 1970 equivalent? I've also read that Gibson started having troubles in the mid 60s and the employees weren't happy before Norlin took over, so this delineation of 69/70 might be meaningless. I'm asking because I am looking at a 1969 and am curious about its perceived value, independent of whether the guitar is an A+ or D- player.

I'm thinking about 1974 1975 or so. Just based on guitars I have played. Some early 70's LP's play superb. Lowest action that rings true I have ever played. Heavy as a brick though. Many of the early 70's Black Beauties were superb, 2 or 3 pickup versions. But by mid 70's, it just seems like they weren't as good. It takes time to destroy a company culture!
All a big generalism though. They likely mostly were better than today's new ones.

 

[24 track]

I have a Norlin era fretless wonder SG a 73' it has a factory installed harmonica bridge ( which works for me) the serial # is a 63' but has MADE IN USA stamped on the back of the head stock, "revamped serials" , the action and set up were perfect ( funny what 100.00 cdn would buy you back then), I sold 3 times and bought it back with out question ,it now lives here perminently, I made it qualification of the sale , I get first offer.

 

[GGardner]

Yeah, the pancake bodies get a bad rap. My 78 standard is a one-piece body. From what I understand, sometime in late 76-77, Gibson switched to one-piece bodies for Deluxes and Standards (not sure about Customs.)
Other than the oversized headstock and the anchor weight (10 lbs), it's a great player with lots of sustain.

For whatever it's worth, my '78 Custom is not pancaked.