Gibson demo guitar?

[KokoTele]

Oh, thanks for that. Someday, maybe I'll call you a liar, too.

You're going to feel really embarrassed when you fact-check this.

I spent too many minutes this evening when I should have been in the shop trying to find any source for your info that was not a bunch of Cliff Clavens trying impress each other. If there is a source, it's hidden more deeply than my google-fu can find.

My experience has been that when an authoritative source cannot be found, the original "author" was a forumite who probably doesn't have any solid information to back up the claim.

The specific thing I'm doubting is the assertion that Gibson used a "2" stamp to designate artist models. I can't find a single reference for that outside of a couple of forum posts. (Nor can I imagine why they would use a "2" instead of anything else.)

 

[Dave W]

Well, the source I'm "contradicting" states, "I do not have info or collect guitars 1970 or newer." Since I started selling Gibsons a few years after he lost interest, he and I can't contradict - we have no overlap. If we're talking about something that happened in '86, you really don't have a source there.

Henry Juszkiewicz took over Gibson and declared, among other things, that the practice of marking guitars as 'seconds' would stop. I'm sorry I don't have the memo handy. If you don't believe me, ask any other Gibson dealer who was around in the eighties.

Or read this thread:
https://www.lespaulforum.com/index....nds-in-the-henry-j-era-1986-and-later.185951/

Nothing but unconfirmed speculation in that LPF thread.

There are plenty of pages other than the one cited by KokoTele. That doesn't prove they're right, but you certainly have nothing to prove you're right.

Again, no one called you a liar.

 

[ElvisNixon]

My dad used to have a 1962 ES335 that he bought new that had “second” stamped where the OP is. There was nothing that he or I could find to indicate it was less than full quality and QC.

 

[Refugee]

Yeah, that thing would be gettin some 1500 grit and McGuires treatment around here.

Meguires is awesome stuff. Best product for making dusty, crummy old tolex look like new.

 

[Swirling Snow]

The specific thing I'm doubting is the assertion that Gibson used a "2" stamp to designate artist models. I can't find a single reference for that outside of a couple of forum posts. (Nor can I imagine why they would use a "2" instead of anything else.)

Okay... though I'm a little confused as to where you expect to find a reference.

 

[KokoTele]

Okay... though I'm a little confused as to where you expect to find a reference.

I'm confused that you're confused I'm looking for authoritative sources... books, well-researched websites, articles, interviews, a video backed by good sources... anything other than some guy on a forum. Forum guys are not reliable sources of information. In fact, in details like this they're more likely to provide wrong information.

In this case, they only reference you seem to have is some guy on a forum, with no other information out there to confirm it. That's almost always an indication that the forum info is wrong.

 

[KokoTele]

My dad used to have a 1962 ES335 that he bought new that had “second” stamped where the OP is. There was nothing that he or I could find to indicate it was less than full quality and QC.

The seconds often have a minor quality flaw that lay people would never notice. A sunburst isn't perfect, the binding wasn't scraped perfectly, an imperfection in the fretwork, etc.

Maybe Gibson stopped using the SECOND stamp because the quality had gotten so bad that everything should have been stamped as a second

 

[teletail]

I'm confused that you're confused I'm looking for authoritative sources... books, well-researched websites, articles, interviews, a video backed by good sources... anything other than some guy on a forum. Forum guys are not reliable sources of information. In fact, in details like this they're more likely to provide wrong information.

In this case, they only reference you seem to have is some guy on a forum, with no other information out there to confirm it. That's almost always an indication that the forum info is wrong.

In the olden days, if you made a statement, it was your responsibility to prove you were right. In our crazy world today, people say whatever they want and think you have the responsibility to prove they are wrong.

I don’t know when asking for verification of what you said became an insult, but, “It’s true because I said it is,” isn’t really proof.

 

[backporchmusic]

Since I started selling Gibsons a few years after he lost interest, he and I can't contradict - we have no overlap.

This seems like it is worth expanding on. You were a Gibson dealer--when and for how long? What official Gibson communications (not just rumors, reps and salespeople gab etc.) were you privy to that would help support your assertions?

LPF denizens and their posts by themselves do not aggregate into a 'reliable source.'

 

[Boreas]

The seconds often have a minor quality flaw that lay people would never notice. A sunburst isn't perfect, the binding wasn't scraped perfectly, an imperfection in the fretwork, etc.

Maybe Gibson stopped using the SECOND stamp because the quality had gotten so bad that everything should have been stamped as a second

I have an old Epiphone F-style mandolin marked "2ND" that has a small finish mar up on the scroll. Today, this likely would have just been shipped to GC as first quality. Nowadays, IF the customer spies it, THEN you give the discount. Marketing bean counters at work...

 

[aFewGoodTaters]

The Gibson Demo guitars seem to include everything from one-off prototypes, to unique specs/finishes, to guitars identified by the factory as having a flaw. It would be interesting to see pictures of the full guitar in the OP to see if we can figure out why it was stamped DEMO.

IMO, a guitar stamped demo is likely to fetch a bit less on the used market. Whether that is fair or not is up for debate.

 

[archetype]

Do you have a reliable source for this? The guitar HQ page has been up for decades and is usually regarded as highly reliable for this info, and it says clearly that seconds are marked "2".

Vintage Guitars Info - Gibson collecting vintage gibson guitars

www.guitarhq.com

I've seen both a "2" and a "SECOND" stamp on Gibsons.

I have, as well. I saw lots of "2" and at least a couple of "SECOND" Gibsons in the 70s and early 80s. Given the number of them I saw, new in music stores, in and around Indianapolis, IN, I can't believe those guitars were provided to artists and then sold as new guitars back into the local market.

 

[Swirling Snow]

I'm confused that you're confused I'm looking for authoritative sources... books, well-researched websites, articles, interviews, a video backed by good sources... anything other than some guy on a forum. Forum guys are not reliable sources of information. In fact, in details like this they're more likely to provide wrong information.

In this case, they only reference you seem to have is some guy on a forum, with no other information out there to confirm it. That's almost always an indication that the forum info is wrong.

The first answer in the thread I linked to is from Mike Slubowski, an author for Vintage Guitar Magazine. He is exactly one of those authorative sources you desire.

 

[warrent]

The first answer in the thread I linked to is from Mike Slubowski, an author for Vintage Guitar Magazine. He is exactly one of those authorative sources you desire.

your original statement was:

BTW, Gibson never sold "seconds". Gibson marked guitars with a '2' when a dealer, rock star, distributor, or other important tourist wanted to buy one from the factory. If someone told you a Gibson was worth less because of the '2' they may have been preying on your ignorance.

the first reply in the thread you cite as proof is:
"I was told (and it has been written) that when Henry took over in 1986, he stopped factory seconds - they went to the bandsaw. If there are any seconds in the 1986-88 timeframe, they may have been offered only to employees, unless I'm missing something. :hank"

and the only other relevant post is from Chris Swope:

"During the years I worked at Gibson Custom 2002-2008, there were no "seconds." There were racks of guitars destined for the band saw and I finally had to ask to step in and push one through just to experience it.. to get it out of my system. It was and is a shame. But in production you weigh all the costs of making something wrong right again versus starting over and sometimes that means a trip to the band saw.
That said, there was also an "artists' bin" where some guitars that had a cosmetic issue, dents.. doinks... would be held for artists. Employee's could every now and then end up with one and I benefitted from that program. I think maybe that doesn't exist anymore either. Not totally sure."

Neither post supports your original post.

 

[OldPup]

That LP Forum thread had at least a couple of competing theories. I realize that no one actually cares about my opinion, but my access to the internet, my reading comprehension skills, and my boundless wisdom compel me to weigh in. I will not be offering citations and may not answer follow up questions. You're welcome in advance.

Henry J apparently didn't sell factory seconds through retailers. Most were destroyed, some were offered to employees at discounts, and some were sent as promotional materials to artists. Henry J took over Gibson in 1986*. There is reason to believe Gibson was in existence at the time of Mr. J's takeover and (at the time of this writing) may be over 100 years old! Based on responses in this thread and based on my time trying to find the end of the internet, it appears that factory seconds were, at some point(s) during Gibson's existence, shipped to retailers for sale to us "normies".

As an aside, Swirling Snow and KokoTele are very good friends in real life. Their light-hearted spat on this inexplicably non-Gibson forum is actually to drive up internet traffic and boost ratings. And it worked.

*may not be exact year

Post Script: If I had done due diligence to be sure I was holding a Gibson and I vibed with the guitar in question, I would buy it whether it said second or not. I would actually offer less money than I might for a non-second - not because I believe the guitar would play or sound inferior to a non-second, but because upon resale I expect to encounter a layperson rather than a forumite (new word to me, love this, will be using liberally henceforth) who could guess that the true history of the guitar in question is that it once belonged to Kevin Costner or else Slash. Said layperson would likely count the second marking against the value of the guitar, and so I would, too.

Happy hunting!

 

[KokoTele]

As an aside, Swirling Snow and KokoTele are very good friends in real life. Their light-hearted spat on this inexplicably non-Gibson forum is actually to drive up internet traffic and boost ratings. And it worked.

We are?

 

[OldPup]

We are?

I made that up. I thought the thread could use a little levity and that maybe my comment might sort of reset the discussion's tone. It was worth a try.

 

[Duncan]

I had a '64-ish 355 and it was stamped with a 2. It bought it around 1974 at GC Hollywood. They had it priced at $500 and I talked them down to $375 because I pointed out to them it was a second. I could never find any reason to see why it was stamped, but it was used a long time before I bought it, and it wasn't in pristine shape.