gen. 4 noiseless W/treble bleed circuit-Too much treble! Help!

Discussion in 'Telecaster Discussion Forum' started by stratcatt, Oct 17, 2020 at 7:54 PM.

  1. stratcatt

    stratcatt TDPRI Member

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    I have a MIM Tele that I put Fender Gen. 4 Noiseless Pickups into and I also added a Treble bleed circuit. This is my first experience with a treble bleed circuit, and I'm wondering....is it supposed to have sooo much Treble? It's like an ice pick in my ear. I can EQ it out, but it's not versatile at all like this. I have to stay at those settings or get my ears pierced. I don't like it at all. I'm wondering if I need one of what Fender calls a "Tone Saver", or if I should just lose the treble bleed. They offer these on their website for $30.00, plus the cost of the install, since I've had my fill of the control cavity after the treble bleed. I was just looking to avoid getting mush when I roll of the volume. Any advice from the more experienced in this arena would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
     
  2. blowtorch

    blowtorch Telefied Ad Free Member

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    that's why i don't like those treble "bleed" circuits: all they do to my ear is just add way too much treble to begin with, so the perception is that when you turn down, you don't lose it
     
  3. beanluc

    beanluc TDPRI Member

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    If you didn't try out lots of different cap values and resistor combinations, I'm not surprised you didn't get something useful.

    There are four variations: The three described here https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/28387-mod-garage-deep-diving-into-treble-bleed-networks and then Fender's Tonesaver, which is a combination of resistors in series AND in parallel - it's Duncan and Kinman types at the same time. It's very typical that the capacitor-only treble bleeds are too trebly and unnatural sounding at low volumes.

    Alligator clips and assortments of caps and resistors are your friends. I tried about 15 different candidates before finding one that did what I want - which is, zero discernible tone change as the volume control turns. I didn't get to zero but the tone change I do discern is acceptable.
     
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  4. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    At full volume the treble bleed adds nothing, so if you find the full volume tone ice picky it’s the new pickups.


    Get rid of the treble bleed, turn down the guitar, turnip the amp, and the tome will sound fatter and warmer.
    The non treble bleed volume pot has an awesome feature where turning down warms up the tone.

    Considering how much we spend on hot pickups, hemp cone speakers, eq and boost pedals, analog delay etc: looking for “warmer tone”, it’s funny that so many add a treble bleed which does the exact opposite.
     
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  5. JRapp

    JRapp Tele-Meister

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    Those things were a nightmare when Fender mated them with 1 meg pots. I can see no reason in the world why a Telecaster (or any single coil guitar) needs a treble bleed. None.
     
  6. JL_LI

    JL_LI Friend of Leo's

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    I love the N4 Noiseless pickups in my avatar MIM. I got mine as a loaded pickguard from Stratosphere. Installing them with the S1 switch required removing material from the control cavity, resoldering connections, and drilling five 1/4” holes to provide relief for the pickup height adjustment screws. I changed nothing, keeping the factory caps and resistors. I have all the treble I need without ice pick. The overall tone is richer than vintage pickups. I use a BOSS EQ-200 to roll off a little from the high frequencies and I’m where I want to be. I’d look over a factory wiring diagram to see how your treble bleed deviates and use factory wiring as a starting point. Rolling off the volume doesn’t make my tone muddy at all, even with the S1 switch pressed. I couldn’t be happier. I play the bridge pickup clean with a flat pick with the guitar tone rolled down about half way. I play the neck and the bridge and neck mostly finger style, also clean, with the tone rolled down a quarter of the way.
     
  7. stratcatt

    stratcatt TDPRI Member

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    I'm not into searching the world over for the right caps. I think I'm going to try the same pups without the treble bleed. I'm also using the CLR four way switch, Stewmac custom Tele wiring kit along with the treble bleed. I think I'll go ahead and ask my tech to go ahead and clip the treble bleed and see how the pickups sound on their own. I've had this guitar in and out of the shop for over a month now. There was a faulty neck pickup in the first set Sweetwater sent me. (See Avatar) It's A MIM special deluxe ash tele with controls reversed-came stock that way. It has the finest neck I've ever played and I have several guitars, including an Ibanez Prestige with the special fret treatment. The original pups sounded great, but the 60 cycle hum was deadly. While it was in the shop I had all of the wiring upgraded as well as a Faraday Cage of copper tape installed. It's silent now, but the treble is deadly now. Thanks for all of the advice. Your all deeply appreciated. Only one more question...Will the Treble bleed do the same thing to my Strat? (Its and HSS with coil split and a series/parallel switch.)
     
  8. fender4life

    fender4life Friend of Leo's

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    Just get a 250pf cap and put a 100k trimmer in series with it. Adjust the trimmer till you get just the right amount of highs at say 5 on the volume. Way too many people will tall you treble bleeds ate horrible without understanding the way they work. The cap value itself sets the point where top end is allowed to bleed thru....the bigger the value the further down the frequency spectrum. One mistake many make is to choose too high a value. You wanna choose the smallest value that works for you then use a resistor or trimmer in series to adjust the degree of highs it allows. I don't use the resistor in parallel because t messes up the taper and it's not needed if you get the right range of treble and the right amount perfectly. Most don't understand exactly how it works and thats what gets all the "treble bleeds suck" replies. You also have to realize every guitar is different and to get it perfect some will require different values. I used to go to the trouble but nowadays i find a 250pf with nothing else is what i prefer in most guitars. But if the high end bothers you all you need to do is understand how to choose values and how to implement it. Experiment...
     
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  9. DeepDangler

    DeepDangler TDPRI Member

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    Remove the treble bleed and just use your tone knob to dial out some of the highs. Why did you install a treble bleed? If it was for rolling the volume down, you may not need it with these pickups. My DiMarzio Twang King set worked fine when rolling the volume but my Seymour Duncan Quarter Pound set lost treble response so I installed a treble bleed network.

    If you find that you still lose too much treble on volume roll off, try 50s wiring.
     
  10. stratcatt

    stratcatt TDPRI Member

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    I installed the treble bleed because the original set of pickups that came with this guitar turned to mud when I rolled off the tone. I was told that the fix would be a treble bleed circuit. This is my first Tele and I (Mistakenly I guess....) thought that I was going to need a treble bleed to prevent this from being the case with these new pickups as well. I spent my early years as a guitarist sticking to custom shop stuff that I liked off the rack at music stores. I only started buying and customizing guitars about ten years ago. I'm still paying to have most of the work done and I'm not very sophisticated when it comes to the science and tech behind the electronics end. I rebuilt the bridge on my Strat this evening and I've changed tuners and such, but am by no means a luthier. I have purchased a middle of the road soldering iron and a Harley Benton ST90-SA dlx ash Strat style guitar to learn and experiment on though. I'm saving up for a pair of Seymour Duncan Antiquity Pickups for it. I also hate the pickguard and will change it to a black one. I have asked this once before, but....will a treble bleed do the same thing to a Stratocaster as it did to my Tele?, or should I try it in the Harley Benton Strat.
     
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  11. Musekatcher

    Musekatcher Friend of Leo's

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    This one unintuitive tele secret could save a person a lot of time and money. I probably have my volume on 1-2, tone is on 2-3. The tone pot on my main tele is really too sensitive at this volume setting, most of the range happens between 2-3, where 1 is mud, and 4 is about 90% of wide open. That's fixable, but I'm too lazy to deal with it. I keep the bass rolled off on my amp. It gets sparkly on clean, increase the volume to 3-4 and its crunchy. I use all three positions as well, which also offers more crunch on the bridge vs middle or neck position.
     
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  12. DeepDangler

    DeepDangler TDPRI Member

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    I would try this wiring scheme on your tele after removing the treble bleed. The tele is pretty straight forward to wire with only 2 pickups and 2 pots. Also make sure you have good 250k pots in that guitar to insure a smoother taper when rolling the knobs.

    upload_2020-10-18_11-44-42.jpeg
     
  13. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    It's funny how we see videos of the great players who keep fiddling with the guitar knobs between phrases, then so often set our own guitar knobs on ten and leave them there, while complaining of ice pick tone, and shopping endlessly for custom parts those hero's never used, to solve the problems that they didn't seem to have, based on their making sounds we like and want, yet refuse to seek using their methods which include NOT cranking the guitar controls to ten and leaving them there.

    Nobody would crank the amp controls to ten and leave them there, but for many players it seem the guitar knobs are a mystery.
     
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  14. stratcatt

    stratcatt TDPRI Member

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    I'm definitely not the player that sets my guitar to 10 and tries to live with the tone the instrument produces there 100 % of the time. The whole reason that I tried the treble bleed was to avoid mud during a roll off to clean things up instead of stepping on a pedal, changing channels or an amp or similar actions. I prefer finding a "Hairy" setting and using the volume knob to manipulate the tone during most of the music I play. (But certainly not all!) Like I said, I will remove the treble bleed from the Tele. I'm not the guy to search for and install endless combinations of electronics for the interior of the guitar. I have never been a "Set it and forget it" kind of performer. But now the tone knob will not seem to cut the highs at all. It goes from ice pick to slightly less ice pick to mud/silent. This is not what I was looking for when installing a treble bleed. I wanted more control over my tone than I had prior to the pickup swap. Apparently this guitar is extremely sensitive to tone changes so finding the right pickups is going to be of paramount importance. I live in Oklahoma City, so there isn't a large population of guitar techs. in my neighborhood. One does well to keep it simple around here. Besides, I'm kind of getting fed up with paying techs. They have been costing me almost as much as the parts. I'll just remove the treble bleed circuit and try the pickups on there own before proceeding any further. Anyway, got to run. I have a Strat that needs dialing in after a bridge/block/tremolo rebuild last night. Thanks for the advice! Cheers!
     
  15. Hey_you

    Hey_you Tele-Holic

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    might try lowering the pup's on the high side.
     
  16. JRapp

    JRapp Tele-Meister

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    "But now the tone knob will not seem to cut the highs at all. It goes from ice pick to slightly less ice pick to mud/silent."

    Wrong taper pots...I use CTS 250K audio taper from Mojotone and the tone control works very well. PM me if you want a slightly more advanced concept for taming highs.
     
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  17. Boreas

    Boreas Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

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    What are the pot values?
     
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  18. stratcatt

    stratcatt TDPRI Member

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    I have one of the Stewmac Premium wiring kits for Telecaster. The pots are 250 k CTS Solid Shaft Control pots. Switch craft output jack. Orange drop caps. .047 uF and .001 uF. I started with an Oak Grigsby 4-way switch, but we had trouble with one of the pickups, (I had a faulty neck pickup on the first set.) but we suspected the switch first and changed it out to a CLR. It came with switch knobs but I stayed with the chrome originals. Non insulated push back wire: 22 AWG White 12 inches long. Non insulated push back wire: 22 AWG Black 24 inches long. Braided Shield push back wire: 22 AWG 12 inches long. So, I got a second set of Fender Gen. 4 Noiseless Pickups from Sweetwater replacing the bad neck, and Stewmac generously replaced the four way switch gratis as well. By the time that got here I had already came up with the CLR switch and I was not enthusiastic about using a suspect product again, so I went with that. The cavity was shielded with copper tape as well, because it was a severely noisy guitar that was the cause behind this endeavor to begin with. I went all out to kill the deadly 60 cycle hum because I love everything else about this particular Telecaster, which also happens to be my first Tele experience. It's a Deluxe Ash MIM version with a maple neck and locking Fender Tuners. The controls are also reversed, it came that way. (It's a knock off '52.) It's the one in my Avatar. By the way...I was successful at killing the 60 cycle hum. It's ice picky, but dead quiet! :cool: I have been dipping my toes into the depths of the world of the luthier, but I'm really a player that's just trying to save a buck by doing the things I'm able to. The key word here being "Player". I'm a guy that wants to spend his time playing the guitar, not fixing it. I'm actually a retired electrician, but by no means am I versed in electronics. The two do overlap to some degree, but I'm not familiar with cap values and resistors, ect. I'm not sure where that will lead, but now you have the particulars. Thanks for your time and help. Cheers.
     
  19. 2HBStrat

    2HBStrat Tele-Afflicted

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    A treble bleed should not add treble. It should keep the treble the same when you turn the volume down. If your treble bleed control consists of only a capacitor, with no resistor, then it will add treble as you turn the volume down. Maybe try a different treble bleed circuit?
     
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  20. stratcatt

    stratcatt TDPRI Member

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    That's always a possibility. As I'm more or less ignorant on the subject, I could always ask the tech. that's done all of the work. Can you recommend one that your familiar with that doesn't behave the same as the one I've mentioned in these posts?, or perhaps point me in the direction of someone that can? Like I said, I'm really more of a player than a tech. I just thirst for a kickass axe that can perform without all of the hassle. I want to concentrate on the music, and constantly struggling to squeeze the tones I'm after out of the instrument is actually kind of a pain to me. There's always a time and place to experiment and tone chase, but there has to be quality GO TO sounds that are readily available when it's time to perform. As you know, failure in the heat of the moment is just BAD! Embarrassing as well as occasionally costly. It's not cool to be searching for a sound when I should be nailing it. Thanks
     
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