L&C, some rework on the nut, a setup and you should be golden.
Fret dress/recrown vs total refret?
- Thread starter bigben55
- Start date
This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links like Ebay, Amazon, and others.
aerhed
Friend of Leo's
As said, a L&C will save your old nut. I refretted my ASAT after over 20 years and brought the new Dunlop's down to original fret height and didn't have to touch the nut.
boredguy6060
Poster Extraordinaire
The first L&C that I performed was about 5 years ago, I had no tools and no experience.
I intentionally went real slow with the bare minimum of tools.
I had a fret file and a leveling stick and welders tip cleaners, fret guards, masking tape, fret polishing wheels.
25$ would have bought it all, everything except the welding tip cleaners came from StewMac.
It took about 4 hours and it came out perfect.
Don’t be afraid to tackle this on your own, there are many helpful instructional videos on YouTube.
You’ll feel better about it knowing that you did it yourself.
If you must replace the nut and it’s about 50-50 that you will, placing a shim under the nut to raise it up can sometimes work like a charm, but even if you buy a new pre slotted nut, it only takes a little tweaking with the welders tip files to get it where you want it.
Good luck,
I intentionally went real slow with the bare minimum of tools.
I had a fret file and a leveling stick and welders tip cleaners, fret guards, masking tape, fret polishing wheels.
25$ would have bought it all, everything except the welding tip cleaners came from StewMac.
It took about 4 hours and it came out perfect.
Don’t be afraid to tackle this on your own, there are many helpful instructional videos on YouTube.
You’ll feel better about it knowing that you did it yourself.
If you must replace the nut and it’s about 50-50 that you will, placing a shim under the nut to raise it up can sometimes work like a charm, but even if you buy a new pre slotted nut, it only takes a little tweaking with the welders tip files to get it where you want it.
Good luck,
AngelDeville
Tele-Afflicted
Level and recrown yourself, the experience will be worth it.
If you screw it up, then refret.
If you screw it up, then refret.
Personally, I feel it's the best option to go with an EVO or Stainless Steel refret in a situation like this.
I have done hundreds of levels and re-crowns, and dozens upon dozens of refrets. Doesn't make much difference to me either way, but I always like to remind people of price vs. cost. The price of a refret is higher, but when you go with a refret using EVO or Stainless Steel wire, the end result is way, WAY more longevity of your frets.
If you get a level and recrown now, you're gonna get some longevity out of your newly playable frets. But eventually they're gonna need to be re-fretted anyway. Basically, you can spend more now and save more money in the long-term, or spend less money now and spend more money in the long-term. If you go with SS or EVO frets, they're gonna be doing just fine and in all likelihood won't even need a minor level and recrown by the time your current frets would be toast.
You also get the added benefit of being able to opt for a compound radius. I have never had a single person that was not happy with a compound radius and whenever people play necks I've done rather extreme compound radii on (6" - 15" for example), they never noticed much except the superb playability and the ability to play anywhere on the neck bending any string without anything fretting out. I always recommend going to a compound radius whenever I do a refret.
With maple necks, naturally they'd need to be refinished. Depending on the price, this may not be worth it to you. This is just a point I always find worth mentioning.
Looks like there's plenty of material left to do a level and crown, but your frets would probably end up noticeably lower. And the wear is in the first position which always requires more work than the wear being higher up the board. If it comes down to a partial refret being an option, I would just opt for a full refret with EVO or SS wire.
I have done hundreds of levels and re-crowns, and dozens upon dozens of refrets. Doesn't make much difference to me either way, but I always like to remind people of price vs. cost. The price of a refret is higher, but when you go with a refret using EVO or Stainless Steel wire, the end result is way, WAY more longevity of your frets.
If you get a level and recrown now, you're gonna get some longevity out of your newly playable frets. But eventually they're gonna need to be re-fretted anyway. Basically, you can spend more now and save more money in the long-term, or spend less money now and spend more money in the long-term. If you go with SS or EVO frets, they're gonna be doing just fine and in all likelihood won't even need a minor level and recrown by the time your current frets would be toast.
You also get the added benefit of being able to opt for a compound radius. I have never had a single person that was not happy with a compound radius and whenever people play necks I've done rather extreme compound radii on (6" - 15" for example), they never noticed much except the superb playability and the ability to play anywhere on the neck bending any string without anything fretting out. I always recommend going to a compound radius whenever I do a refret.
With maple necks, naturally they'd need to be refinished. Depending on the price, this may not be worth it to you. This is just a point I always find worth mentioning.
Looks like there's plenty of material left to do a level and crown, but your frets would probably end up noticeably lower. And the wear is in the first position which always requires more work than the wear being higher up the board. If it comes down to a partial refret being an option, I would just opt for a full refret with EVO or SS wire.
Slowpoke
Tele-Afflicted
Go to You Tube and search for Randy Shartiger. He has loads of videos on dealing with worn frets, leveling and crowning and the tools needed for those jobs. I really rate him as a guitar tech.. S
I've had two refretted and done another one myself, without any refinishing at all. I wouldn't want any planing or refinishing on a vintage neck.
rogb
Tele-Afflicted
Have at the level crown and polish! Acquire some tools. Read the Ron Kirn Level 101.
It's a lot of fun. If then unhappy, get a refret in stainless (Jescar). You won't need to do much to it over the years except play daily and smile.
Do not attempt a stainless refret yourself - it is VERY hard work! Oh yes! I did mine and it took a long time but so lovely to play now.
It's a lot of fun. If then unhappy, get a refret in stainless (Jescar). You won't need to do much to it over the years except play daily and smile.
Do not attempt a stainless refret yourself - it is VERY hard work! Oh yes! I did mine and it took a long time but so lovely to play now.
Found a pic from a job like this I did a while back. You can see the fretwear before and after.
A lot of times, wear looks worse than it is in reality. You will lose a few thousandths of an inch in fret height, but not typically much more than that.
I've measured hundreds if not thousands of frets, and I always do with digital calipers as a precaution to make sure I don't remove too much. You would be shocked at how much dust comes off the frets when you sand or file off only .001" or .002". If you're gonna try a level and crown yourself, I would absolutely recommend that you get a pair of the Stewmac digital calipers that are notched out for measuring fret height.
(link removed)
They look nicer than the older version that I have as well! Gotta love tools that get updated after you buy them
What you do is zero out the calipers on the fretboard, by pushing the probe down until it touches the board. I usually find that on my calipers, the probe is level with the bottom of the tool at about .079".
Then when you put the notch over the frets, with the probe flush with the bottom of your calipers, it'll push the probe back up inside the caliper a certain amount. That certain amount is your fret height.
It will be in a negative reading. For example, -.042". Short and sweet and if you take frequent measurements you will save yourself a lotta nightmares. You'll also learn a lot because you'll know exactly how many thousandths you're taking off as you work.
Personally, my cutoff is a fret height of around .035". I would never use frets that are that height when they're new, but if you're trying to extend the life of your current frets, that's OK. I can play on frets that low without too much issue, but frets around .048" to .050" feel infinitely better to my hand. Especially with bending and vibrato which I do a whole lot of.
If you're not huge on bending and vibrato, fret height matters a whole lot less.
Leveling and crowning does involve some degree of investment. Personally I only level under real string tension using a custom tool of my own design. The method Ron has up works just fine as well and is much more readily accessible.
However you do it, especially as a beginner, I again wholeheartedly recommend those calipers. Measure your current fret height and keep track of how much material you're removing as you go.
My recommendation is still to go for a SS or EVO wire refret, unless you want to learn how to do your own fretwork, or you are OK with paying for a level and crown now and eventually needing to pay for a full refret later.
A lot of times, wear looks worse than it is in reality. You will lose a few thousandths of an inch in fret height, but not typically much more than that.
I've measured hundreds if not thousands of frets, and I always do with digital calipers as a precaution to make sure I don't remove too much. You would be shocked at how much dust comes off the frets when you sand or file off only .001" or .002". If you're gonna try a level and crown yourself, I would absolutely recommend that you get a pair of the Stewmac digital calipers that are notched out for measuring fret height.
(link removed)
They look nicer than the older version that I have as well! Gotta love tools that get updated after you buy them
What you do is zero out the calipers on the fretboard, by pushing the probe down until it touches the board. I usually find that on my calipers, the probe is level with the bottom of the tool at about .079".
Then when you put the notch over the frets, with the probe flush with the bottom of your calipers, it'll push the probe back up inside the caliper a certain amount. That certain amount is your fret height.
It will be in a negative reading. For example, -.042". Short and sweet and if you take frequent measurements you will save yourself a lotta nightmares. You'll also learn a lot because you'll know exactly how many thousandths you're taking off as you work.
Personally, my cutoff is a fret height of around .035". I would never use frets that are that height when they're new, but if you're trying to extend the life of your current frets, that's OK. I can play on frets that low without too much issue, but frets around .048" to .050" feel infinitely better to my hand. Especially with bending and vibrato which I do a whole lot of.
If you're not huge on bending and vibrato, fret height matters a whole lot less.
Leveling and crowning does involve some degree of investment. Personally I only level under real string tension using a custom tool of my own design. The method Ron has up works just fine as well and is much more readily accessible.
However you do it, especially as a beginner, I again wholeheartedly recommend those calipers. Measure your current fret height and keep track of how much material you're removing as you go.
My recommendation is still to go for a SS or EVO wire refret, unless you want to learn how to do your own fretwork, or you are OK with paying for a level and crown now and eventually needing to pay for a full refret later.
Vintage necks are another deal for sure. I generally advise against any kind of modification at all that would potentially devalue a vintage instrument in any way.
As for run of the mill non-vintage maple necks, it's a lot of extra work compared to a rosewood board. It may or may not make enough of a difference to make it worth it. I certainly would rather refret maple necks without having to refinish the entire fingerboard, and have done so many times.
On rosewood boards, no one would ever be able to tell the difference aesthetically before and after planing, unless it had visible wear that the planing got rid of.
Guarantees that when the frets are in they'll be just about perfect, and there is no reason not to do it on a rosewood board, unless it's an exceptional case. On maple necks you might have to do marginally more leveling of the frets to compensate for the lack of planing, but depending on how the neck is, it might be so little as to be unnoticeable. And in other cases planing and refinishing is the best option.
But on vintage necks, I agree, not an option. At least not for me.
bigben55
Friend of Leo's
You guys are psyching me up to try to do it myself. So.....
What exact tools do I need? Like, what exact files? I imagine a few of differing grits. A neck protector thing? And someone said a welders tip kit works for the nut??? I'll get a digital caliper.
I have Dan Erlewine's book. If I screw up, a tech refrets it, and I have new tools.
Question, with a level and crown, the nut slots need cut with it, right? I'll cut the slots, but I'm not up to replacing the nut. That's a techs job.
What exact tools do I need? Like, what exact files? I imagine a few of differing grits. A neck protector thing? And someone said a welders tip kit works for the nut??? I'll get a digital caliper.
I have Dan Erlewine's book. If I screw up, a tech refrets it, and I have new tools.
Question, with a level and crown, the nut slots need cut with it, right? I'll cut the slots, but I'm not up to replacing the nut. That's a techs job.
rogb
Tele-Afflicted
http://www.tdpri.com/threads/fret-leveling-yer-tele-101.201556/
All you need is here, it's a breeze.
One thing I did get from eBay is a slotted straight edge - not expensive at all - with Fender and Gibson scale slots, then you can really make sure your neck is level before you have at it.
bigben55
Friend of Leo's
But first, tomorrow, I'm taking it to a tech for inspection and advice....the one who based on the pic quoted me for a level and crown. If, once he gets hands and eyes on it, thinks I'm on the line between L&C and refret, I'm gonna case that guitar and save up for a stainless steel refret. I DON'T want to buy tools to L&C just to need a refret. And this is an EXCEPTIONAL guitar. My "pry it from my cold dead hands" guitar. I'll die owning this one, so sooner or later it's gonna need a refret. Sooner might be now.
The Ballzz
Friend of Leo's
A Tale Of Two Options!
On the one hand, as long as it won't take food out your babies' mouths, the upgrade to stainless or EVO is well worth the $$$ and along with correcting that fret wear, a no brainer. FWIW, I have a fantastic Tele that I love in all ways except the tiny/low "vintage" frets. Even though it has only ten to fifteen hours of play, it's gonna get new, taller, SS6105 frets. The price is reasonable, as I'll do it myself!
On the other hand, if the guitar currently plays and feels comfortably for you, with the frets not too low, a fret level/crown/polish will bring them no lower than the lowest divot. For that matter, if doing it yourself, you could even do what I call a "Gentle Fret Level" which still leaves tiny hints of the lowest spots, but still brings all the rest of the surface into a closer line with all else. It's really not that hard and the closer attention you pay to the details, the better the results. Also as mention several times, if you make a mess or don't like the results, you're no worse off than you are now, except for having a few new (well, slightly/gently used) tools! For myself, I'm a card carrying tool junkie and I love working with my hands on guitars and many other things, so new tools opens up new prospects, like buying/rejuvenating guitars with worn frets and even helping friends out! It's amazing what a good fret level can do for an already nice playing guitar! Just take your time, one step at a time.
Just My $.02 Or Maybe $.03,
Gene
On the one hand, as long as it won't take food out your babies' mouths, the upgrade to stainless or EVO is well worth the $$$ and along with correcting that fret wear, a no brainer. FWIW, I have a fantastic Tele that I love in all ways except the tiny/low "vintage" frets. Even though it has only ten to fifteen hours of play, it's gonna get new, taller, SS6105 frets. The price is reasonable, as I'll do it myself!
On the other hand, if the guitar currently plays and feels comfortably for you, with the frets not too low, a fret level/crown/polish will bring them no lower than the lowest divot. For that matter, if doing it yourself, you could even do what I call a "Gentle Fret Level" which still leaves tiny hints of the lowest spots, but still brings all the rest of the surface into a closer line with all else. It's really not that hard and the closer attention you pay to the details, the better the results. Also as mention several times, if you make a mess or don't like the results, you're no worse off than you are now, except for having a few new (well, slightly/gently used) tools! For myself, I'm a card carrying tool junkie and I love working with my hands on guitars and many other things, so new tools opens up new prospects, like buying/rejuvenating guitars with worn frets and even helping friends out! It's amazing what a good fret level can do for an already nice playing guitar! Just take your time, one step at a time.
Just My $.02 Or Maybe $.03,
Gene
Antmax
Tele-Meister
I recently did my first feet job in a japanese lawsuit les paul. I got EVO super jumbo pre radishes from Philadelphia Luthier tools. They do tools cheap too. I bought end snippers a radius caul for a press, Steel leveling beam with edges ground from amplified parts cheap, a diamond file from a guy in the UK that makes his own tools. You can see his personal website here. Chris Alsop Guitars
The most expensive thing I bought was a cheap Chinese Drill press for about $70 for pressing the frets. Cheapest thing was a nicholson triangular cross section tapered file for some of the fret work.
The Drill press with a dremell bit in let me grind an edge of the file smooth and the opposite side so I could to a lot of basic fret shaping with it. Bought a hand made bevel file cheap from Portrugal on ebay. You can make your own easily enough if you have a table saw but I don't.
Anyway, so long as you take your time prepping and watching a bunch of youtube videos before you start for tips, it's really not that hard. If you have another guitar you can take your time. I recommend EVO if you don't mind the slight gold colour. Stainless is really hard on tools and requires a lot more muscle and will take a very long time to work on as a newbie. Nickel silver is kind of soft and deforms easily. Evo doesn't dent or bend easily and once pressed into the fretboard was almost perfectly level and needed minimal dressing afterwards. It was actually more level than some guitars I have bought new. Good enough that I waited a few months before I tackled a whole fret level.
The hardest part ended up being beveling the ends. I was anxious and cut the ends with more material on than needed and was then very timid with the file because I didn't want to damage the binding. So it took at least 3 times longer than needed, hours and hours of sliding that angled filing block up and down the neck till it was flush.
I didn't use a lot of glue on the frets and a couple did lift up. I later found you can tell if they are seated properly by tapping them with the metal shaft of a screw driver. If seated they ring out brightly, if not then you get a slight dull sound. I just has some superglue with a fine end on, but the neck back under the drill press with the caul, heated up the offending fret with a soldering iron and pressed with superglue and they seated properly. Was about 10 minutes to fix that mistake which was through my own inexperience.
Definitely worthwhile. I did use a project guitar for my first attempt though. I did go back and round the ends some more at a later date than these pictures were taken. Was a good experience if you have some spare time.
The most expensive thing I bought was a cheap Chinese Drill press for about $70 for pressing the frets. Cheapest thing was a nicholson triangular cross section tapered file for some of the fret work.
The Drill press with a dremell bit in let me grind an edge of the file smooth and the opposite side so I could to a lot of basic fret shaping with it. Bought a hand made bevel file cheap from Portrugal on ebay. You can make your own easily enough if you have a table saw but I don't.
Anyway, so long as you take your time prepping and watching a bunch of youtube videos before you start for tips, it's really not that hard. If you have another guitar you can take your time. I recommend EVO if you don't mind the slight gold colour. Stainless is really hard on tools and requires a lot more muscle and will take a very long time to work on as a newbie. Nickel silver is kind of soft and deforms easily. Evo doesn't dent or bend easily and once pressed into the fretboard was almost perfectly level and needed minimal dressing afterwards. It was actually more level than some guitars I have bought new. Good enough that I waited a few months before I tackled a whole fret level.
The hardest part ended up being beveling the ends. I was anxious and cut the ends with more material on than needed and was then very timid with the file because I didn't want to damage the binding. So it took at least 3 times longer than needed, hours and hours of sliding that angled filing block up and down the neck till it was flush.
I didn't use a lot of glue on the frets and a couple did lift up. I later found you can tell if they are seated properly by tapping them with the metal shaft of a screw driver. If seated they ring out brightly, if not then you get a slight dull sound. I just has some superglue with a fine end on, but the neck back under the drill press with the caul, heated up the offending fret with a soldering iron and pressed with superglue and they seated properly. Was about 10 minutes to fix that mistake which was through my own inexperience.
Definitely worthwhile. I did use a project guitar for my first attempt though. I did go back and round the ends some more at a later date than these pictures were taken. Was a good experience if you have some spare time.
plusorminuszero
Tele-Meister
Those frets would clean up easy.
Just ask the guy to keep the edges crisp, sharp, not rounded. All you need is a little burnishing on the sharp parts and this yields better edge playability. Try to establish that you wish the frets to match exactly the radius, and not drooping away toward the edges which happens if the person gets sloppy or lazy. Dressing is a perfect opportunity to optimize the play area. And if you like the nut, all you need to do is gradually lower the slot bottoms as you see fit.
You should take some measurements, and I believe you will be surprised just how little will need to come off. My guess is less than .010”.
I hate to see frets pulled when there is just no reason, and had to chime in.
Just ask the guy to keep the edges crisp, sharp, not rounded. All you need is a little burnishing on the sharp parts and this yields better edge playability. Try to establish that you wish the frets to match exactly the radius, and not drooping away toward the edges which happens if the person gets sloppy or lazy. Dressing is a perfect opportunity to optimize the play area. And if you like the nut, all you need to do is gradually lower the slot bottoms as you see fit.
You should take some measurements, and I believe you will be surprised just how little will need to come off. My guess is less than .010”.
I hate to see frets pulled when there is just no reason, and had to chime in.
Last edited:
Before I started doing my own work, this is what I did. I'd preemptively refret stainless, as soon as it just needed the first fret level. Saved money in the long run, and those frets are sweet to play, too.
If you think you do want to try it yourself, practice on something other than your favorite guitar.
I bought a cheap crap neck to practice on. It was sold cheap because it had sharp fret ends. Perfect
It was a good eight L&Cs later before I touched my best guitars.
