Fret buzzing above the 12th fret

[jtap]

I just put together my first tele and I got it all setup and have fret buzz above the 12th fret. The action, relief and saddle height were all where I wanted them but the buzzing won't do. I tried raising the action at the saddle even higher but it still buzzed at the limit of where I want the action.

It is my understanding that I need to change the neck angle so the 12th fret is a bit higher than the 22nd fret to rectify this. I planned to do this by getting a pocket shim and sanding it to a slight angle. Does it sound like I have the right idea? Thanks for the help.

 

[TeleMan59]

google fret fall away:
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-technical/381128-fret-fall-off.html

 

[LKB3rd]

Make sure the neck relief is fairly flat. I'd also check the height at the nut. If it is too high, the saddles would need to be lower to achieve a given height at the 12th fret.

 

[KokoTele]

It is my understanding that I need to change the neck angle so the 12th fret is a bit higher than the 22nd fret to rectify this. I planned to do this by getting a pocket shim and sanding it to a slight angle. Does it sound like I have the right idea? Thanks for the help.

Unfortunately, no, though lots of people who don't seem to understand geometry would have you think so. Shimming changes the adjustment range of the saddles. In order for a shim to make the 12th fret higher than the last fret, shimming would have to bend the neck backwards.

How high is the action, and how much relief do you have? My money is on there being too much relief. LKB3rd is right, you want the neck almost entirely flat. Almost every guitar I see has far too much relief, and this causes buzzing in the higher registers when you have lowish action.

Also, even new necks need a level & crown and adding some fallaway in the upper registers is extremely helpful.

 

[jtap]

Thanks for the replies guys. This information is why I asked before trying what I was thinking. I knew you folks had the knowledge I didn't.

The action is .010" maybe a bit more (between 7th and 12th fret) but nowhere near me being able to see the top of the .020" line on my action gauge. This is with a capo on fret 1 and me holding down the low E at 22nd.

At the nut the high e is about 1.5/64 and the low E is close to 2/64.

I will tighten up the truss rod a quarter turn and see if I can get the action to .010" and the neck more straight.

 

[Larry F]

What is "fallaway?"

 

[KokoTele]

What is "fallaway?"

Fallaway is where the frets get a little shorter (or the fretboard slopes) progressively as you go up from the 12th fret.

jtap: action is the height of the strings above the 12th fret. Below 4/64 is starting to get pretty low, and below 2/64 is ridiculously low. (Sometimes people measure over the 15th or 17th fret. The difference between the action at the 12th fret vs. the 17th fret is almost immeasurable.)

Relief is the amount of bow in the neck. .010" is more than you need for most necks, even though Fender specs say to use that in their setup guide. Their guitars rarely play that great from the factory, so take that with a grain of salt. I shoot for .005" or less.

The string height over the 1st fret is often referred to as "nut relief," though I have no idea why. Probably one of those internet things where one guy kept using it wrong and we all followed suit.

 

[jtap]

Fallaway is where the frets get a little shorter (or the fretboard slopes) progressively as you go up from the 12th fret.

jtap: action is the height of the strings above the 12th fret. Below 4/64 is starting to get pretty low, and below 2/64 is ridiculously low. (Sometimes people measure over the 15th or 17th fret. The difference between the action at the 12th fret vs. the 17th fret is almost immeasurable.)

Relief is the amount of bow in the neck. .010" is more than you need for most necks, even though Fender specs say to use that in their setup guide. Their guitars rarely play that great from the factory, so take that with a grain of salt. I shoot for .005" or less.

The string height over the 1st fret is often referred to as "nut relief," though I have no idea why. Probably one of those internet things where one guy kept using it wrong and we all followed suit.

Ok, hopefully I'm understanding correctly. I should have said my relief is about .01"

I need to raise my saddles to get the action up and tighten my truss rod a bit at a time until I get the relief down. I'm on it. Thanks.

Edit:
I think the relief is around .010" now. My action gauge doesn't measure lower than that with the lines I am using but I'll let it sit and tighten it another quarter turn later.

My low E height is about 4/64th and the high e is around 3/64 now at the 12th fret. This is with a capo on the first fret. Should I be measuring it without that on? The high e is good. The low E is buzzing a lot. What max height should I set the low E to try and see what the buzzing is like at that height and then I could lower it from there?

 

[bullfrogblues]

My low E height is about 4/64th and the high e is around 3/64 now at the 12th fret. This is with a capo on the first fret. Should I be measuring it without that on? The high e is good. The low E is buzzing a lot. What max height should I set the low E to try and see what the buzzing is like at that height and then I could lower it from there?

IMO, you should not measure string height with a capo on, but whatever works for you.
I do things a little differently, I measure my string height at the last fret, be it 21 or 22 or 24 depending on the guitar. I shoot for 4/64 to5/64 on all the strings at that point. I'll adjust a little if there is any buzz.

 

[trev333]

all these stupid small measurements do my head in....

I can't imagine fiddling around with feeler gauges doing set ups.....

 

[KokoTele]

A feeler gauge is the only reasonable way to measure a gap that small, but you don't need to bother measuring. Tighten the truss rod until you see just the tiniest little gap. Just enough so you know it's not backbowed.

 

[LKB3rd]

3-4/64 high E and 4-5/64 at the low E should work if the frets are level and everything else is set right. Low at the nut, nearly flat neck.
I don't worry too much about the low E above the 12th fret as I rarely use it in that range, but after getting everything else right, I'd raise it bit by bit until it doesn't annoy you- or annoys you with too high action.
One method is to start with a machinist rule, and low E to high E go 4/64, 4/64, 3.5/64, 3.5/64, 3/64, 3/64. See if it works, bend some strings, test it all over. If it works, smooth out the radius between the E's by eye. Done. If not, try 4.5, 4, 3.5 3.5 3 3 or 5,5,4,3.5,3,3. etc. until it plays how you want. You can vary it according to which strings give you problems.

 

[jtap]

A feeler gauge is the only reasonable way to measure a gap that small, but you don't need to bother measuring. Tighten the truss rod until you see just the tiniest little gap. Just enough so you know it's not backbowed.

3-4/64 high E and 4-5/64 at the low E should work if the frets are level and everything else is set right. Low at the nut, nearly flat neck.
I don't worry too much about the low E above the 12th fret as I rarely use it in that range, but after getting everything else right, I'd raise it bit by bit until it doesn't annoy you- or annoys you with too high action.
One method is to start with a machinist rule, and low E to high E go 4/64, 4/64, 3.5/64, 3.5/64, 3/64, 3/64. See if it works, bend some strings, test it all over. If it works, smooth out the radius between the E's by eye. Done. If not, try 4.5, 4, 3.5 3.5 3 3 or 5,5,4,3.5,3,3. etc. until it plays how you want. You can vary it according to which strings give you problems.

Thanks for the replies guys. I have a feeler gauge and I'll get the neck straight and get the string height set at the 12th without a capo as you guys have suggested and see how it goes.

Here's the guitar you are helping me make playable:

 

[telex76]

I'd suggest using a fret rocker to see if you have some tall frets that need to be addressed.

 

[jtap]

I'd suggest using a fret rocker to see if you have some tall frets that need to be addressed.

I don't have a fret rocker but I'll try to examine the frets and see if there are any issues there that I can notice. Maybe my action gauge stood on its side will be usable for that purpose but if not I'll order a rocker.

 

[poolshark]

An easy/cheap fret rocker solution is just a cut up credit card. Cut the card and sand the important parts flat. Since I'm guessing you don't have a mill, some sandpaper sitting on glass, granite or corian should be fairly reliable.

 

[jtap]

An easy/cheap fret rocker solution is just a cut up credit card. Cut the card and sand the important parts flat. Since I'm guessing you don't have a mill, some sandpaper sitting on glass, granite or corian should be fairly reliable.

I'll get some proper tools if I need to do fret work (some sort of fret leveling tool to attach sandpaper and a crowning file and a fret protector seem like the minimum things I will need).

Good call on the credit card. Thanks.

 

[TeleMan59]

An easy/cheap fret rocker solution is just a cut up credit card. Cut the card and sand the important parts flat. Since I'm guessing you don't have a mill, some sandpaper sitting on glass, granite or corian should be fairly reliable.

You shouldn't have to sand the credit card. Just use it as it is as they come flat. Use the short side. Turn it at an angle if the frets get too close to each other. I suppose you could trim some off too if you don't need it anymore...just don't use the side you cut.

 

[KokoTele]

Turn it at an angle if the frets get too close to each other. I suppose you could trim some off too if you don't need it anymore...just don't use the side you cut.

You can't turn it sideways and still see if the frets are level. It has to be pointed along the string path