For aircraft enthusiasts: when the Royal Air Force flew stopgaps or were refused planes they deserved.

Skyhook

Friend of Leo's
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
Posts
2,808
Location
Turku, Finland
one of the very few times that the UK got it so right that even the US[...] bought it

stack-of-marshall-amps-concert-photos.jpg
 

Cyberi4n

Tele-Afflicted
Joined
Oct 28, 2020
Posts
1,330
Age
49
Location
Chester, Uk
I don't blame you, if Covid hadn't happened I would have gone to Cosford two years ago.

I have some catching up to do.
I’ve seen both actually, the one in duxford too. That was many years ago though, duxford is just a bit far to travel in a day.

Incidentally, this is also in Cosford

1F758AB8-8E7C-4C78-BECA-3A324D2E7A91.jpeg


An Andover converted to Runway Calibration duties that I flew in, many years ago, as an Air Cadet.
 

notmyusualuserid

Poster Extraordinaire
Joined
May 3, 2016
Posts
5,500
Location
In the South
We could probably stick the Harrier in this thread. It's been phased out in British use, for reasons I've never understood, but was, and I believe still is, built in the US under licence and used by the US Marine Corps. It's short/vertical take-off and landing capabilities were of huge value in the Falklands War, and whilst that's obviously some time ago, we no longer have anything with that technology.

On the TSR2, my father always had a view that it was dropped under pressure from the Americans, to get the UK to buy US-made aircraft - the "sweetener" in the deal being access to US-built nuclear warheads without which the UK would have struggled to maintain its own nuclear deterrence. Might be nonsense - I have no idea. My dad wasn't in a position to have inside knowledge, but he was always interested in aviation technology and was well read, followed politics etc, so he may well have been on the right lines.

Complete digression, but I live just about ten miles from RAF Duxford, where the Battle of Britain Flight Spitfire(s?) is/are based. From the first good sunny day each spring, I'll catch the sound of an aero engine that sounds like a Ferrari compared to the little Cessnas up for flying lessons. Step outside and you get your own little airshow, as it is put through its paces, wheeling across the sky, the engine dropping almost out of earshot and then rising to thunder as its angle changes. Never fails to make me smile.
This is a good read, if you can get past the author's hero worship of Bill Waterton, about the postwar British aircraft industry and the compromises that were made, sometimes to appease America, and sometimes out of domestic political expediency.

 

Bob Womack

Friend of Leo's
Joined
May 28, 2016
Posts
2,747
Location
Between Clever and Stupid
I’ve seen both actually, the one in duxford too. That was many years ago though, duxford is just a bit far to travel in a day.

Incidentally, this is also in Cosford

View attachment 1038175

An Andover converted to Runway Calibration duties that I flew in, many years ago, as an Air Cadet.
5FPKI44UGNFZBLZMSY6I72UFUM.jpg

This is also at Cosford: Spitfire K9942, the oldest extant Spit. It flew in the Battle of Britain and sustained Cat. B damage in both exchange with the enemy and a resultant forced landing. It was rebuilt but limited to training. As such it was transferred to 57 Operational Training Unit at RAF Hawarden, a Spitfire transitioning school. My uncle was an American who crossed the border with Canada and joined the RAF during US neutrality. He walked by this plane on the flight line while he was training at Hawarden and lusted after it, though it never appeared in his flight log. He was killed in a training accident in 1941 while preparing to join the Eagle Squadrons. This plane went on to lend parts to help recondition other Spits during filming of the Battle of Britain movie.

Bob
 

Cyberi4n

Tele-Afflicted
Joined
Oct 28, 2020
Posts
1,330
Age
49
Location
Chester, Uk
We could probably stick the Harrier in this thread. It's been phased out in British use, for reasons I've never understood, but was, and I believe still is, built in the US under licence and used by the US Marine Corps. It's short/vertical take-off and landing capabilities were of huge value in the Falklands War, and whilst that's obviously some time ago, we no longer have anything with that technology.

On the TSR2, my father always had a view that it was dropped under pressure from the Americans, to get the UK to buy US-made aircraft - the "sweetener" in the deal being access to US-built nuclear warheads without which the UK would have struggled to maintain its own nuclear deterrence. Might be nonsense - I have no idea. My dad wasn't in a position to have inside knowledge, but he was always interested in aviation technology and was well read, followed politics etc, so he may well have been on the right lines.

Complete digression, but I live just about ten miles from RAF Duxford, where the Battle of Britain Flight Spitfire(s?) is/are based. From the first good sunny day each spring, I'll catch the sound of an aero engine that sounds like a Ferrari compared to the little Cessnas up for flying lessons. Step outside and you get your own little airshow, as it is put through its paces, wheeling across the sky, the engine dropping almost out of earshot and then rising to thunder as its angle changes. Never fails to make me smile.
Don’t the BBMF operate out of Coningsby and not Duxford?

From memory, the RAF wanted Buccaneers, but were overruled in favour of TSR2. One of the promises of the project was that TSR2 was to be exported to Australia. That deal was cancelled by Australia in favour of the F-111. Shortly afterward, with no export market, TSR2 was ALSO cancelled and the RAF were offered the F-111, just like Australia. THAT deal too also fell through, and in the end the RAF ended up with….. the Buccaneer! In no small part an impressive aircraft in its own right, and apparently proved itself well in GW1, it still couldn’t hold a candle to TSR2
 
Last edited:

Bob Womack

Friend of Leo's
Joined
May 28, 2016
Posts
2,747
Location
Between Clever and Stupid
I’m 4 miles from Hawarden. It’s now an Airbus factory, although it has some odd examples of aircraft littered about

View attachment 1038188

View attachment 1038189

View attachment 1038190
Interesting.

68025373_130223446753.jpg


My uncle, Henry Archer "Harry" Womack, is buried in the back corner of St. Deiniol's graveyard (Hawarden No. 1) in the RAF/RCAF section, right by the back gate onto Crosstree Lane. We visited in 1997 and discovered that someone was still putting flowers on his grave. A girlfriend? Who knows. I'm gratified to see that someone puts in the effort to clean the gravestone.

207908_1022880329486_6983_n.jpg


I'm on the right. My father, Harry's brother, is beside and behind me. With the death of my uncle and grandfather within six months, my father was whisked into the role of man of the house at fifteen years old. Three years later he joined the Navy. While standing at Harry's grave in 1997 he just fell silent. That evening he told me that it had suddenly occurred to him that his brother was never coming back. Harry had walked out of their lives and my father had never gotten the chance to process things. Standing at the grave, the finality of it all hit him.

Bob
 

KeithDavies 100

Tele-Holic
Joined
May 19, 2021
Posts
840
Age
60
Location
Cambridge, UK
Don’t the BBMF operate out of Coningsby and not Duxford?

From memory, the RAF wanted Buccaneers, but were overruled in favour of TSR2. One of the promises of the project was that TSR2 was to be exported to Australia. That deal was cancelled by Australia in favour of the F-111. Shortly afterward, with no export market, TSR2 was ALSO cancelled and the RAF were offered the F-111, just like Australia. THAT deal too also fell through, and in the end the RAF ended up with….. the Buccaneer! In no small part an impressive aircraft in its own right, and apparently proved itself well in GW1, it still couldn’t hold a candle to TSR2
I think you're right - I don't see the whole flight around here unless there's a display on. There are at least two Spitfires though - they were up flying around in formation a couple of days ago.
 

telemnemonics

Telefied
Ad Free Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Posts
35,409
Age
63
Location
Maine
Wow!
Lotta interesting info!

My answer to the stated and implied question is: Royalty is slow to adapt...
 

telemnemonics

Telefied
Ad Free Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Posts
35,409
Age
63
Location
Maine
Funny thing though, and of course the answer is no.

But considering the cost of prepping for war and running wars plus suffering wars and cleaning up after wars then further dealing with refugees, all for war which is usually about wanting whatever they got and you dont or defending yours against them that wants it:
Is it possible the cost of war is greater than the cost of everyone having what they need?

Irony rocks the world...
 

Cyberi4n

Tele-Afflicted
Joined
Oct 28, 2020
Posts
1,330
Age
49
Location
Chester, Uk




Top