First Time Neck Shimmer

[Boreas]

To me, this is more evidence the neck isn't/wasn't fitting well in the pocket, and can interfere with the neck seating flat. Make sure you have a good clean fit with no binding. Sanding/filing tight spots in a pocket is as common as shimming. The parts are usually machined correctly, but excess finish and finish runs often complicate a proper fit. Typically easily remedied. Tight spots against the finish can also lead to chips and cracks in the top finish.

 

[Hallski]

To me, this is more evidence the neck isn't/wasn't fitting well in the pocket. Make sure you have a good clean fit with no binding. Sanding/filing tight spots in a pocket is as common as shimming. The parts are usually machined correctly, but excess finish and finish runs often complicate a proper fit. Typically easily remedied. Tight spots can lead to chips and cracks in the top finish.

View attachment 1063716

I should have sanded that down, I took my pictures quickly and put it back together. I will go back and do that for sure! I did sand the sides of the neck pocket like you suggested where the finish was stuck to the neck when I first pulled it off.

Can you comment to the neck angle I have this at? Does that look right? Should the strings be the same distance off the frets all the way up the neck? Again still understanding the shimming and its goals.

 

[Boreas]

I should have sanded that down, I took my pictures quickly and put it back together. I will go back and do that for sure! I did sand the sides of the neck pocket like you suggested where the finish was stuck to the neck when I first pulled it off.

Can you comment to the neck angle I have this at? Does that look right? Should the strings be the same distance off the frets all the way up the neck? Again still understanding the shimming and its goals.

Frankly, I was confused by all of the pix. Not sure which were final. Can you post pix of your most CURRENT set up? Include bridge/saddle pix. Could be the camera angle, but this picture seems to show the neck diving toward the bridge. Look at the position dots.

Typically, most people have higher action as the strings approach the bridge to allow for full vibration in the middle of the string (12th fret area). Not as important if you play really lightly.

 

[Hallski]

Frankly, I was confused by all of the pix. Not sure which were final. Can you post pix of your most CURRENT set up? Include bridge/saddle pix.

Typically, most people have higher action as the strings approach the bridge to allow for full vibration in the middle of the string (12th fret area). Not as important if you play really lightly.

Sorry, I thought that might happen! These are all final pics. I'll snap a pic of the bridge to post here when I have a chance, at work right now.

Ok, as far as the neck angle, I would say that is what I have. Honestly I've never gone this far into a guitar setup to address neck angle, so it's all new to me, and I just needed to know what the acceptable angle should look like.

 

[Boreas]

It is a system that depends on proper geometry. The factory neck angle is machined for use with a particular intended bridge assembly with a typical player set-up. If the neck isn't fit properly, it can result in odd saddle adjustments. Sometimes necks/pockets just are not machined properly, but more often, finish excess and runs are ignored and this can cause problems with fit down the road. Some player preferences are for non-standard saddle heights (or non-standard bridge assemblies) which can require a neck shim for proper geometry or angle. Sometimes the shim is intended to change the angle of the neck, sometimes only the height above the body. But with modern CNC machining, "bad" neck angles should not be common on a stock guitar from the factory.

But if people start swapping necks and changing bridges, all bets are off and proper fit, alignment, compensation/intonation, and range of saddle adjustment need to be assessed.

 

[Hallski]

It is a system that depends on proper geometry. The factory neck angle is machined for use with a particular intended bridge assembly with a typical player set-up. If the neck isn't fit properly, it can result in odd saddle adjustments. Sometimes necks/pockets just are not machined properly, but more often, finish excess and runs are ignored and this can cause problems with fit down the road. Some player preferences are for non-standard saddle heights (or non-standard bridge assemblies) which can require a neck shim for proper geometry or angle. Sometimes the shim is intended to change the angle of the neck, sometimes only the height above the body. But with modern CNC machining, "bad" neck angles should not be common on a stock guitar from the factory.

But if people start swapping necks and changing bridges, all bets are off and proper fit, alignment, compensation/intonation, and range of saddle adjustment need to be assessed.

Got it, that makes sense. By shimming at the headstock end of the pocket, I've changed the angle to be more forward. I came to that conclusion from not being to raise my saddles any higher, and of course the reverse shim has helped that! I'm wondering now though, the more I dig into it, was the shim necessary or was there another step in the setup process I could have done a better job at? Should the shim have been put in the heel end of the pocket? All part of the process to understanding it of course. With no formal training, its the only way! Just trying to get the best playing guitar I can, and I wasn't able to get there without the shim at this point, but I think I'll continue to experiment to learn just how I like the guitar to be setup (also, how the guitar WANTS to be set up) and how to get there.

 

[Boreas]

Got it, that makes sense. By shimming at the headstock end of the pocket, I've changed the angle to be more forward. I came to that conclusion from not being to raise my saddles any higher, and of course the reverse shim has helped that! I'm wondering now though, the more I dig into it, was the shim necessary or was there another step in the setup process I could have done a better job at? Should the shim have been put in the heel end of the pocket? All part of the process to understanding it of course. With no formal training, its the only way! Just trying to get the best playing guitar I can, and I wasn't able to get there without the shim at this point, but I think I'll continue to experiment to learn just how I like the guitar to be setup (also, how the guitar WANTS to be set up) and how to get there.

This is all part of the learning curve. Personally, I would get that neck pocket and heel perfectly clean with no binding. Pull away any of those loose wood fibers at the screw holes. Fit and snug down the neck, adjust relief if needed, then re-assess the angle to see if it falls withing the adjustment range of your saddles. When in doubt, always fall back to stock settings and re-assess. The further one gets from nominal, the harder it is to diagnose.

 

[Hallski]

This is all part of the learning curve. Personally, I would get that neck pocket and heel perfectly clean with no binding. Pull away any of those loose wood fibers at the screw holes. Fit and snug down the neck, adjust relief if needed, then re-assess the angle to see if it falls withing the adjustment range of your saddles. When in doubt, always fall back to stock settings and re-assess. The further one gets from nominal, the harder it is to diagnose.

I can feel it heading that direction, just the way my mind works. So I was thinking maybe it would be good to do just that, clean the pocket and see where its at. Gonna leave it alone for the moment though, going to be using it for the next few days getting ready and playing a Christmas service. I'm between backup guitars right now, and this is the only guitar I've got to use for the service. After that, I'm diving back in. Thanks for your help

 

[Freeman Keller]

To answer the question that you've asked a couple of times, ideally the action will rise very slightly as you go from the nut to the end of the neck. Typically I will set the high E string at about 12 or so thousands off the first fret and 60 or so off the 12th fret. The low E might go from 16 to 80. I like relief around 5 thousands capoed at one and holding down at 16, measured at the lowest point (7 or 8). I do not capo when measuring or setting action.

Getting those measurements depends both on the neck angle and the height above the body ("overstand") and the type of bridge and height of saddles. I get those measurements on a neck with no angle and a neck with four degrees of angle - it depends on the rest of the guitar. One of my rules of thumb is that if the fret plane just hits the tops of the saddles at their very lowest adjustment then the neck geometry is correct. When we talk about "angle' remember that zero degrees is an angle (if you ever get to work on a classical guitar they have a negative neck angle)

There are two little tests that help me visualize the whole setup. If you fret a string at the third fret it will also be touching the second. You should have a hair of clearance between the string and the first fret - a couple of thousands maybe, but there should be a gap. Tap the string over the fret, you should hear a "ping".

The other test I call "next fret clearance". Assuming that the open strings play buzz free and that there are no buzzes when fretting at the first fret, then measure the gap at the second while fretting the first. Now fret the second fret and measure the gap at the third. If it is at least the gap at the second it won't buzz, right? Now fret three and measure four, ditto, if the gap is at least what you had before it won't buzz. Go all the way up the neck on that string, watching for a pattern. Does the gap get bigger all the way up the neck? Does it get bigger and then close down (maybe at the 16th or so)? Does it get tight at one fret, then bigger again? Each of these can tell you something about the combination of fret condition, relief, action, and it doesn't take very long to do.

I'm going to stay out of the shim discussion. I believe that shimming a screw on neck is a valid and useful way to get the neck geometry that you need, but its not the only way - you can certainly take an angled skim cut on the bottom of the neck pocket with a router. You can calculate the angle and depth of the pocket with very simple high school geometry or you can stuff pieces of things in the pocket until you get it right. I like a nice flat piece of whatever I'm using that makes good tight contact with both the neck and the pocket, but I'm not anal about it - if I was I would glue the shim into the pocket and make sure it was smooth. I have seen shims in quite a few guitars that cross my work bench but since they vary so much in material and construction (many seem to be a piece of guitar pick) that I'm quite sure they didn't come from the factory this way.

I'm also quite sure that you have seen both my threads about geometry and setup, I won't link them again, but the basics are all there and they work.

 

[Hallski]

To answer the question that you've asked a couple of times, ideally the action will rise very slightly as you go from the nut to the end of the neck. Typically I will set the high E string at about 12 or so thousands off the first fret and 60 or so off the 12th fret. The low E might go from 16 to 80. I like relief around 5 thousands capoed at one and holding down at 16, measured at the lowest point (7 or 8). I do not capo when measuring or setting action.

Getting those measurements depends both on the neck angle and the height above the body ("overstand") and the type of bridge and height of saddles. I get those measurements on a neck with no angle and a neck with four degrees of angle - it depends on the rest of the guitar. One of my rules of thumb is that if the fret plane just hits the tops of the saddles at their very lowest adjustment then the neck geometry is correct. When we talk about "angle' remember that zero degrees is an angle (if you ever get to work on a classical guitar they have a negative neck angle)

There are two little tests that help me visualize the whole setup. If you fret a string at the third fret it will also be touching the second. You should have a hair of clearance between the string and the first fret - a couple of thousands maybe, but there should be a gap. Tap the string over the fret, you should hear a "ping".

The other test I call "next fret clearance". Assuming that the open strings play buzz free and that there are no buzzes when fretting at the first fret, then measure the gap at the second while fretting the first. Now fret the second fret and measure the gap at the third. If it is at least the gap at the second it won't buzz, right? Now fret three and measure four, ditto, if the gap is at least what you had before it won't buzz. Go all the way up the neck on that string, watching for a pattern. Does the gap get bigger all the way up the neck? Does it get bigger and then close down (maybe at the 16th or so)? Does it get tight at one fret, then bigger again? Each of these can tell you something about the combination of fret condition, relief, action, and it doesn't take very long to do.

I'm going to stay out of the shim discussion. I believe that shimming a screw on neck is a valid and useful way to get the neck geometry that you need, but its not the only way - you can certainly take an angled skim cut on the bottom of the neck pocket with a router. You can calculate the angle and depth of the pocket with very simple high school geometry or you can stuff pieces of things in the pocket until you get it right. I like a nice flat piece of whatever I'm using that makes good tight contact with both the neck and the pocket, but I'm not anal about it - if I was I would glue the shim into the pocket and make sure it was smooth. I have seen shims in quite a few guitars that cross my work bench but since they vary so much in material and construction (many seem to be a piece of guitar pick) that I'm quite sure they didn't come from the factory this way.

I'm also quite sure that you have seen both my threads about geometry and setup, I won't link them again, but the basics are all there and they work.

I did see your original post but didn't click through to the thread yet, was trying to catch up. Just went back and looked and yes, that will be VERY helpful in understanding. Thanks! And thank you for this explanation as well. I think as much I am trying to work on the angle, I'm equally as interested to understand the why behind why its done/not done. So this is some of the serious wisdom that I came here for!

 

[Freeman Keller]

I did see your original post but didn't click through to the thread yet, was trying to catch up. Just went back and looked and yes, that will be VERY helpful in understanding. Thanks! And thank you for this explanation as well. I think as much I am trying to work on the angle, I'm equally as interested to understand the why behind why its done/not done. So this is some of the serious wisdom that I came here for!

I couldn't remember exactly what I had linked so I went back and looked at my post #26. It has the link to the discussion on neck geometry - basically what I'm trying to do is show how neck angle and all the other factors work on two very different guitars to achieve the same results.

I did not link the setup thread, some people have found it useful

Basic Setup

There are a couple of threads running right now where questions have been asked about leveling frets, making nuts and other setup related topics. I’ve commented a bit and I’ve received a few private messages asking about aspects that we’ve been discussion. I thought maybe it was time to...

www.tdpri.com

The setup thread has been turned into a little pdf which can be printed out and taken to your shop, if that would be helpful I can send you a copy.

 

[Hallski]

I couldn't remember exactly what I had linked so I went back and looked at my post #26. It has the link to the discussion on neck geometry - basically what I'm trying to do is show how neck angle and all the other factors work on two very different guitars to achieve the same results.

I did not link the setup thread, some people have found it useful

Basic Setup

There are a couple of threads running right now where questions have been asked about leveling frets, making nuts and other setup related topics. I’ve commented a bit and I’ve received a few private messages asking about aspects that we’ve been discussion. I thought maybe it was time to...

www.tdpri.com

The setup thread has been turned into a little pdf which can be printed out and taken to your shop, if that would be helpful I can send you a copy.

Great stuff! That PDF would be handy, I'll PM you...

 

[Bass Butcher]

I do not want to spend the energy singling out every post that follows current trendy myths about neck shims, air gaps, coupling, sustain, and in some cases shimming at the headstock end resulting in Tele saddles so low the strings are barely above the sides of the bridge plate plus all height screws protrude.
Plus it is not any individuals fault that they got into guitars during the misinformation age when the least informed post the most gear tech info.
So while some may take offense at my suggestion that they have been misled by marketing lies and youtube influencers, please accept that I do not blame any individual who looked for info on the net and concluded that repeated fears of the air gap prove that the air gap will rob them, and that shims are something to worry about.

But this discussion is so full of repeated myths that are not grounded in reality, with the origins of those myths being a mix of marketing by sellers of tapared shims, and new player hobby modders sitting at computers thinking about sustain and worrying about the air gaps they read robbed sustain, while listening to records made with Fender guitars that are all wrong according to trendy gear chat experts.

Your comment is pretty long winded for not saying very much. In my case, what I know of the subject comes from manufacturing things like church and courthouse interiors for what was the premier manufacturer for interior woodwork in North America. What little I know about instruments being courtesy of a few decades repairing and restoring them, with a focus on restoring antique acoustic stringed instruments. I also possess a 'bit' of knowledge passed on through years of dealing with people like the founder of the Furlanetto instrument company (now called 'FBass'), a 'bit' higher up the luthier/instrument manufacturing food chain than Fender or Gibson.
I've shimmed dozens of 60's and 70's solid and hollow body electric guitars and basses, preferring stock like cigarette package cardstock for shimming 'back in the day'. You do know what the industry term 'stock' refers to, right? I also use cardstock for raising nut heights on cheaper instruments, when required and if I needed that much thickness. I could write you a university level thesis on the subject but 'pearls before swine'.
The main flaw in your opinion is focusing on the "air gap" as a rant excuse, not the seating of the joint (to use the industry/technical term). The "seating of the joint" is always better (more stable and secure), when the entire joint surfaces make contact, regardless of the item. A poorly seated neck joint can most definitely impact on sustain and potentially result in unwanted audible sympathetic vibration noise at specific frequencies, like a popped glue joint on an acoustic instrument can. Affixing a screw through an 'air gap' is also a good way to wind up with a screw that will work itself loose over a short period of time. That isn't specific to instruments, it is a constant with any wood to wood joint, which expands and contracts with seasonal weather changes and aging.
The time, place or item is irrelevant, you can 'farmer'/'backyard mechanic' the job, or you can do it right and repair/restoration techniques evolve, just like manufacturing techniques do. Your comment was a complete waste of time to read. It contained not one single spec of anything of any value whatsoever, speaking as someone who's experience extends from working with Victorian era woodworking techniques and equipment/tools to today's technologies.

 

[Bass Butcher]

I'm no Tele expert but a question that came to mind for me is, wouldn't having something like cardboard between the neck and the body have a negative effect on sustain?

Cardstock, not cardboard. Cardboard would be a poor choice for any type of wood to wood shimming. Cardstock being an already compressed mix of paper/wood and glue, as long as the joint is tight sustain loss would be minimal, as long as you are not using a bunch of layers of it. Using stacked layers of it, it most definitely has a dampening action as you would strip your threads in the wood before you got sufficient pressure on the joint to compensate for the 'sponginess' of even cardstock.

 

[telemnemonics]

Your comment is pretty long winded for not saying very much. In my case, what I know of the subject comes from manufacturing things like church and courthouse interiors for what was the premier manufacturer for interior woodwork in North America. What little I know about instruments being courtesy of a few decades repairing and restoring them, with a focus on restoring antique acoustic stringed instruments. I also possess a 'bit' of knowledge passed on by years of dealing with the founder of the Furlanetto instrument company, now called 'FBass'.
I've shimmed dozens of 60's and 70's electric guitars and basses, preferring cigarette package cardstock for shimming 'back in the day'. I also lean towards using that for occasions where I need to raise a nut height a bit.
The main flaw in your opinion is focusing on the "air gap", not the seating of the joint (to use the industry/technical term), which is always better when the entire joint surfaces make contact (and can most definitely impact on sustain). Affixing a screw through an 'air gap' is also a good way to wind up with a screw that will work itself loose over time. That isn't specific to instruments, it is a constant with any wood to wood joint, which expands and contracts with seasonal weather changes.
The time, place or item is irrelevant, you can 'farmer'/'backyard mechanic' the job, or you can do it right the first time. That hasn't changed between then and now, maybe when you get older you'll figure that out.

Well you make your case for you being more infomed than me on woodworking!
Then tell me when I get older I may figure out what you figured out.
Given that I am a year older than you, I fear I may not have any upcoming revelations on shimming Fender necks as I found old Fenders shimmed 43 years ago, and have done for myself and satisfied customers since.

But the core of what you argue is that the methods employed by Leo era Fender are in your opinion inferior, you feel those methods resulted in guitars that lacked sustain and kept getting loose due to the air gap you suggest I care too much about.
But "air gap" by your preferred phrasing, descibing the same physical function. We both agree then that "air gap" is dumb?

I could make a list similar to yours of my decades of professional fine woodwoking experience plus years as a guitar tech.
But that is the not-saying-much long winded thing you dislike.

Found a body I shimmed the neck on and used for years with no problems, but now have that neck on another body.
Crooked, see!

 

[stratisfied]

When I have to raise the heel of the neck slightly in the pocket, I don't mind putting a shim in. When faced with your situation, I prefer to deepen the neck pocket as opposed to raising the neck with a shim at front end. I don't like the look of the gap with a partial shim and I don't want to see a full length shim either.

I just use a Dremel with a large flat grinding stone (for the floor of the pocket) a cylindrical stone for the sides and a straightedge. I make measurements as I go along (additional depth = current string height - desired spring height) and taper the entire pocket front to back.

If I use the body with a different neck somewhere down the road and find it sits too low, I can always insert a hidden shim across the back.

As Boreas said, it is important to first cleanup the corner where the sides of the pocket meet the floor. Occasionally you will find a "shelf" there from a bad routing job that keeps the neck from seating fully. Sometimes just correcting that solves the problem. Also, be sure to enlarge the holes in the body for a slip fit. It is very easy for the neck to walk up the screws if the holes in the body are too tight.