First fret action?

[Wallaby]

I'm wondering about everyone's thoughts on 1st fret action.

If open strings are sounding cleanly, does "too low" exist?

I've seen mention of fretting the 3rd fret and having a sliver of light between the strings and the 1st fret, and other mentions of having between 1/64" and 2/64" between the strings and the first fret with the strings open.

I have a guitar with what I think is low first fret action - approximately .010" - and it plays clean and feels great, for instance. I'm a fingerpicker, though, and wonder if first fret action closer to .020" would be better for strumming?

Thanks.

 

[charlie chitlin]

Assuming you're happy with your set-up...
Fret a note at the first fret, andlook at the space by which the string clears the 2nd fret.
It's very small, right?
That's all the space you need between the open string and the first fret.

 

[jvin248]

.

I do the 'fret the third fret and measure the gap to the first fret' that should be around 2-3 sheets of paper gap.

However, I have a zero fret guitar and the only gap is the natural drop due to neck relief which is quite small. I used to wonder how a zero fret worked or didn't work but it's pretty slick.

.

 

[Wallaby]

Maybe "too low" is when there is no "click" when tapping the string over the 1st fret?

I've learned the trick of keeping a finger very lightly touching a string that I'm measuring under with a feeler gauge, like a spider feeling the web shake, but even so it is not easy to measure really tight gaps. Not that measurements matter much, but they help me understand when I'm in the ballpark.

I found a sheet of gift wrapping paper made of mylar ( I think ) that is thinner than my thinnest gauge - but I can't feel it when it touches a string slipping under it.

 

[schmee]

I'm wondering about everyone's thoughts on 1st fret action.

If open strings are sounding cleanly, does "too low" exist?

I've seen mention of fretting the 3rd fret and having a sliver of light between the strings and the 1st fret, and other mentions of having between 1/64" and 2/64" between the strings and the first fret with the strings open.

I have a guitar with what I think is low first fret action - approximately .010" - and it plays clean and feels great, for instance. I'm a fingerpicker, though, and wonder if first fret action closer to .020" would be better for strumming?

Thanks.

No. In fact I find some I've filed the nut slots on are pretty much near zero clearance. But I try for more like .003-.005. (capo at fret 3 and clearance checked at fret 1)
I find tight gap like that far easier on the fingers when playing for a while. It also eliminates going out of tune on cowboy chords from pressing the strings down so far.

 

[Freeman Keller]

My target first fret clearances are 0.014 high E to 0.018 low E for most acoustic and electric guitars, with relief around 0.003 or so. That usually gives a "back fret clearance" (ie fret at three and measure the gap at one) of two or three thou - you want some but not a lot. Electric players often like to feel a bit more in the first position than an acoustic player, I might bump those numbers up by a couple of thou.

 

[Wallaby]

Very helpful information, I appreciate the comments!

 

[stefanhotrod]

I‘m fighting too with the nutslots on my Guild Aristocrat since I went outa tune on chords on the 1st fret.

I filed the slots down to a clearance of ~ 0.18 at the first fret (fretcrown to underside of string). Depressing on third fret it‘s just a hair of clearance at the 1st fret. Feels good and plays much better, but I guess I can get even a tad lower on the unwound strings.

 

[2manyteles]

Press 3rd fret, tap over first. You should hear a ping with little effort. If you have a gauge like I do, you could go with about .002 clearance- maybe .003 on the wound strings. Feeler gauges are handy and cheap.

Some folks like more clearance. Heavy hitters like it higher so they can grab the string for bends and such in open position.

 

[Ricky D.]

The best way I've found to measure that clearance is to use a piece of guitar string. Just save the pieces you cut off when you restring. Need an .010 gap? Just try to roll a piece of an .010 E string through. You get the idea.

 

[Wallaby]

This is interesting, can you tell if the zero fret is the same height as the first fret, or maybe slightly taller?

However, I have a zero fret guitar and the only gap is the natural drop due to neck relief which is quite small. I used to wonder how a zero fret worked or didn't work but it's pretty slick.

 

[Peegoo]

Set your neck relief (truss rod) and string action first: get the 8th-fret relief into the .012" zone. Then set action between 5/64" and 4/64" at the 12th fret.

Adjust the nut slots to give you between .018" and .020" of action over the first fret. Once the nut is dialed in, go back and adjust relief and action again. Dialing in the setup of a guitar is a synergistic process: one adjustment affects all the others. This means you have to sort of 'sneak up' on the final setup. The last step is setting the strings' intonation.

Same goes for a guitar with a zero fret, but ZFs can be fiddly and there is a whole lot of incorrect information about them on the Web. These are my comments from a ZF discussion here months ago:

The number one misconception of the ZF is the nut serves only to hold the strings in position on the ZF. This is incorrect.

String downforce over the ZF should be about the same as that created by a fingertip when fretting a string out on the fretboard. This control of the downforce is maintained by the depth of the slots in the nut: properly done, the nut slots should be cut so the strings are begining to buzz on the ZF, and then take just a smidge more from each slot so the strings ring clearly when played open.

Too much downforce and the wound strings (especially) will pop or ping as they 'skip a tooth' in the transverse grooves they create in the crown of the ZF.

The other thing a properly-tuned nut does for a ZF is it prevents premature wear. Excessive downforce on the ZF, expecially on the plain strings, causes the strings to dish out the crown of the ZF when bending strings. This is more of a problem on guitars that have a bit of distance between the nut and the ZF, as on older Gretsches. As the ZF wears, string action over the first few frets drops and the strings start to buzz when played open.

So if you have a guitar with a ZF and the strings are floating in the nut slots, replace the nut or remove it, shim it up, and recut the slots so the strings are noting cleanly when played open without excessive downforce on the ZF.

Setting up a zero fret (properly tuning the nut) takes human hands on--and that adds to production cost. It's why many ZF guitars come from the factory with the strings floating in the nut slots.

Brian Setzer loves his Gretsches, but the zero fret on them creates tuning problems. Most of his guitars have been modified by his tech Tom "TV" Jones. The mod consists of removing the zero fret, sawing through the fretboard at that slot, and installing a standard nut. I've done this same mod for several of my clients over the years. If you have a particularly valuable guitar with a zero fret, you have to consider that such a mod will devalue the guitar.

When you use the nut files to adjust the slots in the nut, take extraordinary care to avoid scoring the crown of the zero fret with the file. It is too easy to do if you lose concentration for just a split second.

One way to simplify the process is to cut the slots from the headstock side of the nut using the tip of the file.

 

[Wallaby]

Several responses specify a slight "back" clearance over the 1st fret when the string is pressed at the 3rd fret.

If the unfretted string plays clean, does it matter if there is back clearance? Other than issues of feel, like were mentioned for open position bending, grabbing strings for pull-offs, etc., is there a detrimental effect if the string behind the fretted note has zero clearance above the frets?

Maybe there can be buzzing behind the fretted note?

Those "feel" issues are really important, I'm just trying to get to a functional understanding of the question.

 

[Wallaby]

.. and there is a lot to digest about Zero Frets

 

[charlie chitlin]

No. In fact I find some I've filed the nut slots on are pretty much near zero clearance. But I try for more like .003-.005. (capo at fret 3 and clearance checked at fret 1)
I find tight gap like that far easier on the fingers when playing for a while. It also eliminates going out of tune on cowboy chords from pressing the strings down so far.

Being that you never actually PLAY a guitar behind your finger while freeting a note on the 3rd fret, I feel that this method is good for estimating, and it's a nice coincidence that it works, but it's not a perfect replacement for working with the actual effective length of the string, i.e. between the fretted note and the saddle, or, in the case of an open string, between the nut and the saddle.

 

[Wallaby]

Yes, me too. I've thought of this as a good method that works consistently rather than an absolute functional requirement of, uhm, physics or trigonometry, I guess.

t's a nice coincidence that it works

 

[jfgesquire]

Set your neck relief (truss rod) and string action first: get the 8th-fret relief into the .012" zone. Then set action between 5/64" and 4/64" at the 12th fret.

Adjust the nut slots to give you between .018" and .020" of action over the first fret. Once the nut is dialed in, go back and adjust relief and action again. Dialing in the setup of a guitar is a synergistic process: one adjustment affects all the others. This means you have to sort of 'sneak up' on the final setup. The last step is setting the strings' intonation.

Same goes for a guitar with a zero fret, but ZFs can be fiddly and there is a whole lot of incorrect information about them on the Web. These are my comments from a ZF discussion here months ago:

The number one misconception of the ZF is the nut serves only to hold the strings in position on the ZF. This is incorrect.

String downforce over the ZF should be about the same as that created by a fingertip when fretting a string out on the fretboard. This control of the downforce is maintained by the depth of the slots in the nut: properly done, the nut slots should be cut so the strings are begining to buzz on the ZF, and then take just a smidge more from each slot so the strings ring clearly when played open.

Too much downforce and the wound strings (especially) will pop or ping as they 'skip a tooth' in the transverse grooves they create in the crown of the ZF.

The other thing a properly-tuned nut does for a ZF is it prevents premature wear. Excessive downforce on the ZF, expecially on the plain strings, causes the strings to dish out the crown of the ZF when bending strings. This is more of a problem on guitars that have a bit of distance between the nut and the ZF, as on older Gretsches. As the ZF wears, string action over the first few frets drops and the strings start to buzz when played open.

So if you have a guitar with a ZF and the strings are floating in the nut slots, replace the nut or remove it, shim it up, and recut the slots so the strings are noting cleanly when played open without excessive downforce on the ZF.

Setting up a zero fret (properly tuning the nut) takes human hands on--and that adds to production cost. It's why many ZF guitars come from the factory with the strings floating in the nut slots.

Brian Setzer loves his Gretsches, but the zero fret on them creates tuning problems. Most of his guitars have been modified by his tech Tom "TV" Jones. The mod consists of removing the zero fret, sawing through the fretboard at that slot, and installing a standard nut. I've done this same mod for several of my clients over the years. If you have a particularly valuable guitar with a zero fret, you have to consider that such a mod will devalue the guitar.

When you use the nut files to adjust the slots in the nut, take extraordinary care to avoid scoring the crown of the zero fret with the file. It is too easy to do if you lose concentration for just a split second.

One way to simplify the process is to cut the slots from the headstock side of the nut using the tip of the file.

I've owned my '67 Gretsch for 34 of its 54 years and it has seen significant gig usage. I have never had a problem with the 0 fret, but I can certainly understand that is the exception and not the rule. Removing the 0 fret on my baby? I don't think so!

 

[That Cal Webway]

Years ago I read in Guitar World an article by John Suhr the great instrument maker,

That's where I learned of using the third fret measurement to check at the first fret clearance

 

[Freeman Keller]

Being that you never actually PLAY a guitar behind your finger while freeting a note on the 3rd fret, I feel that this method is good for estimating, and it's a nice coincidence that it works, but it's not a perfect replacement for working with the actual effective length of the string, i.e. between the fretted note and the saddle, or, in the case of an open string, between the nut and the saddle.

I agree totally with this, most of the time if you have a tiny bit of clearance you will will not have any buzzes in the first positions, if you have no clearance you will often have problems. Just a quick and dirty test.

I do a similar thing on the other side - lets call it "next fret clearance". Lets say your guitar plays clean with the strings unfretted, that says the nut slots are high enough (maybe too high). Fret a string at 1, if it plays cleanly measure the gap at 2 (or ping it). The gap will be pretty small - 2 or 3 thousands maybe. Now fret at 2 and measure at 3, if you have at least the same gap it won't buzz (duh). Move on down the board, as long as you have at least the same clearance you shouldn't have any buzzes. I can to that really fast by tapping each fret as I move down the neck, if you use a feeler blade just move that from fret to fret.

This actually will tell you a lot more. If the next fret clearance gets bigger towards the middle of the f/b, then progressively smaller as you approach the body joint you are seeing the effects of relief. If the change is very much you might have too much relief. If the gap stays pretty uniform but suddenly gets small at one fret, then goes back to where it was before you have a high fret. Watch carefully what happens at the body joint - you could be seeing a bit of a hump. If the gap is getting bigger all the way down the board you might have excessive action height.

Its just one of those quick little tests that can give some incite into the overall playability.

 

[MatsEriksson]

This is interesting, can you tell if the zero fret is the same height as the first fret, or maybe slightly taller?

No, but I can...

It depends. On acostics it works like this. No matter how good the bone nut, plastic, graphite, or alternate material, the strings will eventuall chew into their own slots. Wear. Natural wear. It can take 1 year, 2 years, or 10 years or more, but eventually a) the whole nut will sink into the wood ever so slightly. b) the string with the highest tension downwar WILL wear into the slot and material, it's not steel on steel..

which it is...

on a thing with zero fret. You can veyr easily mimick any zero fretted guitar with just putting any capo on any guitar at the first fret or any fret, and check the 3rd fret clearance there. There are as many guitars with zero fret leveled the same height as the rest of the fret, as a bit taller, because of the neck reilef taking care of that the first fret is "naturally" a tiiiiiiiiiny but higher (a hair) than the rest of the frets following it. Now why should you do the zero fret a tiiiiiny bit taller than the rest?

Well, it works like this. The wound strings has a certain gauge, and as well as you starting seeing small dents in the first few frets after a while, it is so with the underside of the strings too, residing all of the time on something with great downward force. It can be zero fret, or a regular nut. But eventually, especially on every wound string, you will flatten the wrap around the core a tiny bit which you can see if you change out very old strings and turn on them and take a look.

There are just as much dents in them as there is on the frets. So you have "sunk" the action by using old strings, the wound ones. The plain ones aren't affected as much. Now, regularly the strings (even the plain ones) makes dents in the zero fret too, eventually. and if you combine the

a) flattening of the wrap on the underside of the wound strings
b) dents in the zero fret made by the string chewing down, eroding, ever so slowly, SOME manufacturers makes some slack for this, and makes them a tiny bit taller in the first place to leave room for chewing into the steel. The use of Stainless Steel zero fret might mitigate all this to a great deal. But few of them uses zero fret with SS, and the rest of the frets regular.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

People saying they have to change out zero fret more often than a nut. My experience is the contrary. On acoustics I've had to change out the nut or raisen it a bit every 5 years, even sooner, because of first fret string buzz. Have yet to change out any zero fret on any guitar. My experience too is that you - actually - can have slightly (a tiiiiiiiiny bit here too) lower action up there vs a nut. It is because the steel of the zero fret is kind of hindering the speaking length to start, it doesn't oscillate as much up there compared to any nut of bone, micarta, plastic. However, I would think that a steel nut (brass) or Floyd Rose locking nut would produce the same results. And as such, the first fret intonation is light years better than anything with any nut.

This you can test for yourself too, with using any capo on any guitar. You get a poor mans zero fret there. It's always easier to press down strings right in front of a capo, compared to at the nut.

Remember, Brian Mays Red Special had a zero fret installed 1966. In the restoration made in 1999, it was decided that the zero fret didn't need to be changed out. But the other frets did. First in 2014 or something they decided it was time for it to be changed out. Quite some mileage if you'd ask me.

I like zero frets, I even prefer them.