Fender Tweed Champ - old vs. new - what are your thoughts?

[68goldtop]

Hi guys!

I´m really glad that I found this vid recently:



It showcases everything I don´t like about my ´57 "Custom" Champ.

If you care to look/listen to it (you only need to watch until 1.52 or so - just until he says "blanket") you´ll hear what I mean
I´d love to have my Champ sound as lively, open and WILD as the old one, and I´d be very happy if anyone had a clue on what to change/look for.
I think that the gain structure is actually quite close - but the new one sounds "muffled" in comparison...
I tried a different speaker already (old Alnico-Oxford from an sf-Champ), and while it does help, it´s still a couple of miles away...


Thank you all in advance!

cheers - 68.

 

[printer2]

I would bet on different speakers have a different frequency response more than anything. If he could have driven the individual speakers with the different amps we could pin it down more. Other than that who knows? One of the reasons I wonder why people would go for a Champ rather than a Princeton with its tone control.

 

[Cali Dude]

Nice playing. There really is a significant difference between the two.

 

[68goldtop]

Hi!

I would bet on different speakers have a different frequency response more than anything. If he could have driven the individual speakers with the different amps we could pin it down more.

Like I said, a vintage Alnico does help, but it´s still "no cigar"

Other than that who knows? One of the reasons I wonder why people would go for a Champ rather than a Princeton with its tone control.

I think there´s two reasons...
Princetons are made of "unoptanium" vs. Champs - way more Champs than Princetons have been made.
Plus, from what I´ve gathered, it seems like the tone-control actually makes the tone suffer a bit...
I could be wrong on this, as I never had the chance to play a Tweed Princeton...

cheers - 68.

 

[kuch]

that's the reason I got rid of my tweed champ. When they came out, I picked up a Clapton Vibro Champ. Even with the attenuator, I didn't really care for the sound. When you drive the tweeds, it just gets too "dirty" for my likes.
I like my SF Vibro Champ a whole lot better.
And yes, I do have a couple of Princetons for when I need more headroom.

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

Gimme a 5F2-A over any tweed Champ...

 

[68goldtop]

Hi kuch!

that's the reason I got rid of my tweed champ ... I like my SF Vibro Champ a whole lot better.

That´s exactly my situation!
As it is, I prefer my sf Champ/s - but if my 57 reissue could sound as good as the vintage one in the vid, I might have two great (and yet different) Champs to play and love

cheers - 68.

 

[Jared Purdy]

Hi guys!

I´m really glad that I found this vid recently:



It showcases everything I don´t like about my ´57 "Custom" Champ.

If you care to look/listen to it (you only need to watch until 1.52 or so - just until he says "blanket") you´ll hear what I mean
I´d love to have my Champ sound as lively, open and WILD as the old one, and I´d be very happy if anyone had a clue on what to change/look for.
I think that the gain structure is actually quite close - but the new one sounds "muffled" in comparison...
I tried a different speaker already (old Alnico-Oxford from an sf-Champ), and while it does help, it´s still a couple of miles away...


Thank you all in advance!

cheers - 68.

It's very hard to say based on the review between one vintage Champ and a current reissue. I heard another shoot out the other day, also on youtube, also between a vintage 57 (with an 8" speaker) and a current reissue, and the difference wasn't nearly as noticeable. The comments by the viewers affirmed that while there was a difference, you wouldn't have said that the reissue was bad sounding. Just different. To really know how different, you'd need a few vintage Champs to compare to the reissue. There's just way too many variables (known and unknown) that will affect the sound of a 70 year old amp.

In the video you've posted, it definitely sounds like there's a blanket over the reissue. I'm not sure what the fix for that is? I doubt it's a speaker swap. Weber makes very good, period correct speakers. I also doubt that a tube swap would make that big of a difference. I just bought a used (2018) reissue Champ. It has the original Weber alnico speaker, but the tubes had been changed. It's got a GE 5Y3 and a Westinghouse 6V6 in it. When I I took the back panel off to see what was in there, that's when I noticed the tubes, and that the previous owner also installed an RCA 12AX7 in V1 where there is supposed to be a 12AY7. I had a NIB Electroharminix 12AY7 that I installed, and it tamed the white noise a lot, and the amp also ran cooler (the top of the amp over the chassis was nearly hot to the touch with the 12AX7 in).

I don't have a vintage Champ to compare it to, but the store where I bought it did, and while the caps on the vintage Champ were in definite need of repair, you could tell through the waterfall like noise that it did sound better. Is that from 70 years? I don't know. I'm going to give mine to my amp tech and ask him for his advice. He told me the other day that he's never worked on a current reissue, just older ones and on silverface Champs. Not the same beast though. I'll let you know what he says.

 

[NTC]

And yes, I do have a couple of Princetons for when I need more headroom.

You are thinking of the post 1964 style Princeton. A tweed Princeton is a single ended amp, some years like a champ, some not, but all with a tone control similar to the one-tone-knob tweeds and brown amps.

Edit: and rolling tubes can make a HUGE difference in these, including rolling the 6V6. Gerald Weber mentioned this in one of his books - they would keep plugging in tubes until the amp sounded best.

 

[printer2]

Hi!
Like I said, a vintage Alnico does help, but it´s still "no cigar"

I think there´s two reasons...
Princetons are made of unoptanium vs. Champs - way more Champs than Princetons have been made.
Plus, from what I´ve gathered, it seems like the tone-control actually makes the tone suffer a bit...
I could be wrong on this, as I never had the chance to play a Tweed Princeton...
cheers - 68.

But what good is an old amp even if more available if you do not like it? There does seem to be many new Princeton type amps out there. On the tone control causing the tone to suffer, how? As long as the tone control is turned up above the volume control you have a bright capacitor letting the highs through (just like on some of the bigger boy Fender amps have on a switch, at least the tone pot allows you to choose how much highs you are adding) . In your case it seems that not having a tone control to let more high through is causing the tone to suffer. There are people and even kits out there making them, Chinese nock off for around $400 Us from what I saw.

 

[Wildeman]

Them Princetons aren't very Champy, very nice but not really comparable imo.

 

[Wally]

When I I took the back panel off to see what was in there, that's when I noticed the tubes, and that the previous owner also installed an RCA 12AX7 in V1 where there is supposed to be a 12AY7.

The vintage 5F1 uses a 12AX7.

https://www.schematicheaven.net/fenderamps/champ_5f1_schem.pdf

Why Fender puts a 12AY7 there in the RI, I do not know. ??
Maybe Fender is afraid that people won’t like the amount of rawness that a 5F1 naturally has???
As to that video in that @68goldtop shows us, I do hear a great difference in those amps. Had I been there, I would had to have swapped the tubes to verify that the difference was not in the tubes. Something is going on there…and it could be tubes. Different 6V6s will yield very different results due to the difference in operati9nal parameters.
Also, I never run a 5F1 where those two amps were set. My Volume on the amp would always be past halfway….and I can get pristine cleans there. Those cleans will be the same volume as the distorted sonics due to the compression that occurs when the amp is set up that way. It puts a lid on the pushed signals. Was there a boost in between the guitar and the amp?? Or was the player simply using heavy pick attack…heavy???.
I do like what I hear out of the vintage Champ.
Okay, looking at the schematic for the Champ RI, we can see that Fenderuses a bypass cap on the input preamp stage whereas the vintage amp has no bypass cap. Lift that cap, and the 57 RI will change. Then you can install a 12AX7….the preamp will change as will the driver stage.

 

[Jared Purdy]

The vintage 5F1 uses a 12AX7.

https://www.schematicheaven.net/fenderamps/champ_5f1_schem.pdf

Why Fender puts a 12AY7 there in the RI, I do not know. ??
Maybe Fender is afraid that people won’t like the amount of rawness that a 5F1 naturally has???
As to that video in that @68goldtop shows us, I do hear a great difference in those amps. Had I been there, I would had to have swapped the tubes to verify that the difference was not in the tubes. Something is going on there…and it could be tubes. Different 6V6s will yield very different results due to the difference in operati9nal parameters.
Also, I never run a 5F1 where those two amps were set. My Volume on the amp would always be past halfway….and I can get pristine cleans there. Those cleans will be the same volume as the distorted sonics due to the compression that occurs when the amp is set up that way. It puts a lid on the pushed signals. Was there a boost in between the guitar and the amp?? Or was the player simply using heavy pick attack…heavy???.
I do like what I hear out of the vintage Champ.
Okay, looking at the schematic for the Champ RI, we can see that Fenderuses a bypass cap on the input preamp stage whereas the vintage amp has no bypass cap. Lift that cap, and the 57 RI will change. Then you can install a 12AX7….the preamp will change as will the driver stage.

Thanks for that explanation. I was thinking of contacting the amp tech I use to ask him what the differences are between vintage and reissue. That sounds like a fairly straightforward mod. What concerned me with the 12AX7 that was in my amp was not the tone, though it was most definitely a lot louder. It was the heat that I could feel coming from the chassis. it was noticeably warm over the volume control, input, etc. When I put the 12AY7 in, the heat was gone.

 

[Powdog]

Without a clear gut shot of both amps there’s no telling what causing the difference. I’m guessing the reissue is true to the schematic. The original could be modified or even bone stock with all original cc resistors. There’s an amp builder (Carl’s Customs) who advertises that it is the OT that makes the big difference. But the RI definitely sounds muffled. I’d focus on the circuit. The Weber Sig8 has a ribbed cone so it should be plenty bright. An 8” Blue Pup would be brighter. If it were mine I’d try lifting the bypass cap on V1 and go from there.

 

[Wally]

it was noticeably warm over the tone control, input, etc. When i put the 12AY7 in, the heat was gone.

Is there a tone control in the ‘57 Champ RI? That would be a Princeton, eh?
To the heat, I cannot speak…
Curious, though. What are the voltages and the bias numbers with each 12A-7? I have never done any comparisons with different novals in a 5F1, but could it be that the 12AX7 drives that 6V6 a bit harder than does the 12AY7, and the 6V6 is dissipating a bit more heat? It would be of interest to do some comparisons in that area. If one wanted to, one could throw a 5751 into the comparison.
If I had one of these, I would be removing that bypass cap on the input gain stage. Ommv….but the warranty is over, right? That would be a good reason to buy one used rather than new. A person could see if it could be a 5F1 with a really simple change….and a 12AX7 in V1.

 

[68goldtop]

Hi Wally!

... I do like what I hear out of the vintage Champ.

So do I

Okay, looking at the schematic for the Champ RI, we can see that Fenderuses a bypass cap on the input preamp stage whereas the vintage amp has no bypass cap. Lift that cap, and the 57 RI will change...

That sounds very good/interesting!
Do you think that's something I could do myself (as a non-tech)? I could also take it to an amp-tech nearby - should be a piece of cake for him.

cheers - 68.

 

[red57strat]

Okay, looking at the schematic for the Champ RI, we can see that Fenderuses a bypass cap on the input preamp stage whereas the vintage amp has no bypass cap. Lift that cap, and the 57 RI will change. Then you can install a 12AX7….the preamp will change as will the driver stage.

I'd be interested in knowing if the '58 Champ in the video had a bypass cap on the preamp tube (I'll bet it did). The schematic doesn't call for one, but I've never seen a 5F1 Champ without one.

 

[Jared Purdy]

Is there a tone control in the ‘57 Champ RI? That would be a Princeton, eh?
To the heat, I cannot speak…
Curious, though. What are the voltages and the bias numbers with each 12A-7? I have never done any comparisons with different novals in a 5F1, but could it be that the 12AX7 drives that 6V6 a bit harder than does the 12AY7, and the 6V6 is dissipating a bit more heat? It would be of interest to do some comparisons in that area. If one wanted to, one could throw a 5751 into the comparison.
If I had one of these, I would be removing that bypass cap on the input gain stage. Ommv….but the warranty is over, right? That would be a good reason to buy one used rather than new. A person could see if it could be a 5F1 with a really simple change….and a 12AX7 in V1.

My bad. No, there is no tone control. I think I meant to type "volume" control. Ya, the warranty is long up on this 2018 reissue. I'm going to give it to my amp tech with your suggestions. Can always put the cap back if I don't like the results.

 

[Jared Purdy]

I'd be interested in knowing if the '58 Champ in the video had a bypass cap on the preamp tube (I'll bet it did). The schematic doesn't call for one, but I've never seen a 5F1 Champ without one.

Are you saying that the vintage, original Champs that you've seen all had bypass caps on them? @Wally has pointed out that the bypass cap is a reissue addition by Fender. The originals didn't have it, hence the 12AX7 as opposed to the 12AY7.

 

[red57strat]

Are you saying that the vintage, original Champs that you've seen all had bypass caps on them? @Wally has pointed out that the bypass cap is a reissue addition by Fender. The originals didn't have it, hence the 12AX7 as opposed to the 12AY7.

Yes. I'm saying that all of the vintage, original 5F1 Champs that I've seen have had the bypass cap even though it was not shown in the schematic.

I assume that Fender planned to not have a bypass cap on V1, the schematic was drawn without it, they didn't like how the amp sounded without it, they added it in production, and they never revised the schematic. Maybe.