Fender Tone Stack for Flat Response

[Andy4731]

Good Day All!

As I have posted before, I have a Fender Performer 1000 that I purchased new in 1994 or so when I had significant delusions of grandeur.

I have been using of late several modeling devices, Mustang Floor, Mustang Micro, Korg Pandora, etc. All have built in amp models.

My question:

What is the best way to set the tone on the amp (specifically the clean channel) in order to least influence the amp models. All at 1, or all at 5, or all at 10?

Also, I have been running everything in front of the amp and ignoring the effects loop. Would it be more beneficial to run it into the effects loop and run a full wet out? Would that bypass the tone stack?

Thank you for your valued advice and input.

 

[middy]

Your standard Fender black panel tone stack will give you a close to flat response with bass and treble all the off and the mids all the way up. This can be rather dark, so you can curve the treble response up with the treble control as needed.

 

[chris m.]

If it has an effects loop then just run the output of your modeler into the effects return of the amp. This bypasses the guitar amp's tone stack and pre-amps.

The only reason to use the "4-cable-method" would be if you prefer the gainy sounds you can get out of the amp pre-amps over the sounds you can get out of your modeler. With the 4 cable method you would do the following:

Put a send/return block into your model effects chain between things like wah/distortion/fuzz and time-based effects like chorus/phase/tremolo/delay/reverb.

1) Plug your guitar into the guitar input of your modeling unit. Cable #1.
2) Run the send from your modeler into the guitar input on your amp. Cable #2. So now you can goose the front end of your guitar amp with fuzz/wah/distortion pedals and the like.
3) Run the send from the guitar amp into the return of your modeler. Now your modeler is receiving the signal after it has run through the guitar amp's pre-amp(s) and tone stack. Cable #3.
4) Run the output from your modeler into the return of your guitar amp. Now your power amp is receiving the full signal chain. Cable #4.

Again, the only reason to do this is if you prefer the dirt sounds you can coax out of your guitar amp over the dirt sounds you can coax out of your modeler.

As far as getting the tone stack set to be neutral if you plug the output of your modeler into the guitar input of the guitar amp: I don't think there is a formula or set answer for this. You have to experiment. Here's the way I would do it/have done it:

1) Plug your guitar straight into the amp and set everything to where you are getting a neutral clean sound that you like.
2) Now plug your modeler into your guitar amp, and your guitar into your modeler. Select a patch that in your opinion also delivers the best neutral, clean sound, however that is defined for your ears.
3) Play the patch through your guitar amp. It will probably not sound right, so adjust the EQ on the amp tone stack until you can get it to again sound like the neutral, clean tone you originally wanted.

The typical issue here is that your modeler has a speaker simulator in it which adds mids so your output will sound more like a guitar amp when going through a PA, headphones, into a DAW, etc. But your guitar speaker adds mids organically. So you end up with too much mids. So you have to dial back on the mids. On an amp without a mid tone knob, the way you do this is by dialing up both the bass and treble. Depending on your modeler, another potential option is to turn off the speaker simulator or IRs while still using the modeler's pre-amps or amps. This requires the modeler to allow you to turn off the speaker simulation, though.

 

[Ed Storer]

Allen Amps came with a 1 Meg pot for the Mid. It functioned normally up to about 3 on the dial; full on, it lifted the tone stack entirely - giving a flat response. It makes the amp quite a bit louder.
If your Fender has a Mid control, you could try replacing the pot with 1 Meg.

 

[chris m.]

If it has an effects loop then just run the output of your modeler into the effects return of the amp. This bypasses the guitar amp's tone stack and pre-amps.

The only reason to use the "4-cable-method" would be if you prefer the gainy sounds you can get out of the amp pre-amps over the sounds you can get out of your modeler. With the 4 cable method you would do the following:

Put a send/return block into your model effects chain between things like wah/distortion/fuzz and time-based effects like chorus/phase/tremolo/delay/reverb.

1) Plug your guitar into the guitar input of your modeling unit. Cable #1.
2) Run the send from your modeler into the guitar input on your amp. Cable #2. So now you can goose the front end of your guitar amp with fuzz/wah/distortion pedals and the like.
3) Run the send from the guitar amp into the return of your modeler. Now your modeler is receiving the signal after it has run through the guitar amp's pre-amp(s) and tone stack. Cable #3.
4) Run the output from your modeler into the return of your guitar amp. Now your power amp is receiving the full signal chain. Cable #4.

Again, the only reason to do this is if you prefer the dirt sounds you can coax out of your guitar amp over the dirt sounds you can coax out of your modeler.

As far as getting the tone stack set to be neutral if you plug the output of your modeler into the guitar input of the guitar amp: I don't think there is a formula or set answer for this. You have to experiment. Here's the way I would do it/have done it:

1) Plug your guitar straight into the amp and set everything to where you are getting a neutral clean sound that you like.
2) Now plug your modeler into your guitar amp, and your guitar into your modeler. Select a patch that in your opinion also delivers the best neutral, clean sound, however that is defined for your ears.
3) Play the patch through your guitar amp. It will probably not sound right, so adjust the EQ on the amp tone stack until you can get it to again sound like the neutral, clean tone you originally wanted.

The typical issue here is that your modeler has a speaker simulator in it which adds mids so your output will sound more like a guitar amp when going through a PA, headphones, into a DAW, etc. But your guitar speaker adds mids organically. So you end up with too much mids. So you have to dial back on the mids. On an amp without a mid tone knob, the way you do this is by dialing up both the bass and treble. Depending on your modeler, another potential option is to turn off the speaker simulator or IRs while still using the modeler's pre-amps or amps. This requires the modeler to allow you to turn off the speaker simulation, though.

One other good general tip. If your modeler has the capability, cut off any frequences below 100Hz or above 6.3KHz. This will eliminate the "fizz" and "flub" you hear come out of a lot of modelers, especially with gain.

 

[TheCheapGuitarist]

Good Day All!

As I have posted before, I have a Fender Performer 1000 that I purchased new in 1994 or so when I had significant delusions of grandeur.

I have been using of late several modeling devices, Mustang Floor, Mustang Micro, Korg Pandora, etc. All have built in amp models.

My question:

What is the best way to set the tone on the amp (specifically the clean channel) in order to least influence the amp models. All at 1, or all at 5, or all at 10?

Also, I have been running everything in front of the amp and ignoring the effects loop. Would it be more beneficial to run it into the effects loop and run a full wet out? Would that bypass the tone stack?

Thank you for your valued advice and input.

Run it into the effects return.

 

[chris m.]

Run it into the effects return.

Even when going into the effects return there can still be the problem of speaker simulation on top of an actual speaker. I use a Boss GX-100 and it's super easy to just turn off the cab/speaker sim. I have 3 main patches-- clean, edge of breakup, and crunch/lead. I copied these patches over to other preset slots and saved them with the speaker/cab sim turned off. So if I'm going into headphones or a PA, I use the patches with the speaker sim turned on. If I'm going into the effects return of a guitar amp, I use the versions of the patches that have the speaker sims turned off. If I'm going into the guitar input of an amp that doesn't have an effects loop, I use the patches with speaker sim turned off, and then use method I described in my earlier post to make the guitar amp's EQ as neutral as possible.

 

[Andy4731]

Team,

Thank you for the guidance so far! I am going to give these methods a shot when I have a chance this weekend.

I will report on my results.

 

[printer2]

You can see the effect of the bass and treble at zero here.

TSC in the web

 

[Tim S]

You can see the effect of the bass and treble at zero here.

TSC in the web

That looks massively useful. Thanks!

 

[middy]

You can see the effect of the bass and treble at zero here.

TSC in the web

You can see that when the bass and treble are at 1, the mid knob actually acts as a sort of volume control and the the volume knob can be used as a master volume. This can let you dial in a little fatter tone, but not too much or you’ll get master-volume-itis

 

[middy]

Most bass players know these tricks to flatten out their eq for fingerstyle, or scoop it for picking and slapping.

 

[peteb]

You can see that when the bass and treble are at 1, the mid knob actually acts as a sort of volume control and the the volume knob can be used as a master volume. This can let you dial in a little fatter tone, but not too much or you’ll get master-volume-itis

Tis true that that, but how many 10s of db’s were lost?

Most bass players know these tricks to flatten out their eq for fingerstyle, or scoop it for picking and slapping.

it may work for bass, but I don’t think setting the treble to one on a TMB tone stack is viable for most guitar players.

 

[Andy4731]

You can see the effect of the bass and treble at zero here.

TSC in the web

That is a great tool! I will be playing with this for quite a while.

 

[printer2]

That is a great tool! I will be playing with this for quite a while.

It has me coming back for more on many an occasion.

 

[tubeToaster]

You can see the effect of the bass and treble at zero here.

TSC in the web

I down loaded the TSC a month ago but it doesn’t have but 6 or so amp tone stacks. What am I missing?

 

[printer2]

I down loaded the TSC a month ago but it doesn’t have but 6 or so amp tone stacks. What am I missing?

There are more simulations online. I do like using the downloaded one more though.

 

[G Stone496]

Good Day All!

As I have posted before, I have a Fender Performer 1000 that I purchased new in 1994 or so when I had significant delusions of grandeur.

I have been using of late several modeling devices, Mustang Floor, Mustang Micro, Korg Pandora, etc. All have built in amp models.

My question:

What is the best way to set the tone on the amp (specifically the clean channel) in order to least influence the amp models. All at 1, or all at 5, or all at 10?

Also, I have been running everything in front of the amp and ignoring the effects loop. Would it be more beneficial to run it into the effects loop and run a full wet out? Would that bypass the tone stack?

Thank you for your valued advice and input.

Well wah, envelope filter, pick attack removal and volume swell, boost, OD and distortion sound best my ears at the front end. Modulation and time based effects like delay, chorus and reverb sound best in the effects loop.

That said, there are no hard and fast rules. Move the order and location in the signal chain around. You might find an interesting sound that inspires a song or arrangement.