Fender Super 60,112 & 210 Owners!

Discussion in 'Amp Owners Clubs' started by mattdean4130, Feb 17, 2010.

  1. mattdean4130

    mattdean4130 Tele-Afflicted

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    Beautiful amps, but seem to be pretty rare.
    Come from the red knob period, the 112, and 210 are identical amps just with different cabinet options and were available between 1989-1993. The Super 60 is very similar but has an added bright switch and a couple other little things.

    50W, 1x12AT7, 2x12AX7, 2xEL84.

    One of the nicest sounding valve amps i've heard - and i was lucky to pick one up :) Will post some pics soon!
     
    RFT III likes this.
  2. eggman

    eggman Friend of Leo's

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    Present!

    Howdy,

    Present, sir! 1991 Super 112 and late 80s "The Twin". I'm particularly fond of the Super 112. This amp has the biggest, juiciest clean tone I've ever heard. She's needed one repair in the 18 years I've owned her.
    Recently I thought my beloved Super 112 was on the Fritz, but it turned out to be those crappy Sovtek 6L6s. Replaced them with a duet of large, old Sylvania 5881s from a box marked "U.S. Army signal Corps. acceptance date 2-56". Big improvement; sounds better than new. I love my Super 112.

    Eggman
     
  3. AjayTele

    AjayTele Tele-Afflicted

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    I guess I had report in over here, as I have been informed that these are NOT Rivera era amps and have thus been evited from the Rivera era club...;)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  4. mattdean4130

    mattdean4130 Tele-Afflicted

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    Awesome we have members!! Nice work Ajay, how do the two compare?

    I had a similar experience with mine eggman, and replaced the tubes, although i just put new sovteks in it. I also put 3 12AX7's in it by mistake, i totally missed the placard and one tube the writing was worn off and i had just assumed they all to be ax7's, its a bit raunchier but gets a little too broken up in the louder volumes for my liking. Going to replace with an at7 when i could be bothered ordering one!

    I'll take some pics and post them, i've been lazy!
     
  5. tap4154

    tap4154 Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Super 210 checking in :D

    I really love this amp! (though these days I usually play a smaller Frontman II 25R at home, which with a Ragin' Cajun installed is a great amp too). REALLY sweet, clean tone from this Super 210. Only complaint is the OD channel, which like most Fender OD channels is very hard to balance with the clean channel (just use a good OD pedal)... OH, and it's heavy! But I put casters on mine. It has a "pull-bright" on the volume pot, notch filter, presence control, and input #2 has 1/2 sensitivity when used alone (good for active pups or acoustics). Just be careful with the plastic input jacks, and board-mounted pots, and you're fine.

    I hear conflicting info about Rivera... that these may be based on stuff he'd been designing before he left Fender, but really, who cares? They're great amps, and a steal on the used market! However in my case, I'm an original owner (1990) and mine is still in showroom shape since I don't gig (longtime off/on hobby player and living room jammer). Also had a cover made from Custom Amps Covers, and they have my specs now, so they can make you one too. Great covers for about $40. I had them angle it for the control panel. Great fit!

    Some pics:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  6. AjayTele

    AjayTele Tele-Afflicted

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    Sorry, I haven't really done a side by side comparison of them as yet.

    I gigged with the Super 60 a couple of weeks ago just to try it out. A little hard to get a good clean at a decent volume (to overcome the drummer), maybe the Super 210 would be better with it's addtional speaker capacity. I'll check it out and report back.
     
  7. mattdean4130

    mattdean4130 Tele-Afflicted

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    That sure is in good nic Tap!
    Pull brightness? Thats interesting. I wonder if mine has this and i've never noticed it haha
    Will check this afternoon when i get home from work.
    Mines not in that good condition, but it sure sounds sweet!
     
  8. tap4154

    tap4154 Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    You should have it, and "pull notch" on your presence pot too. They really are sweet sounding amps. I play my 25R more at home because it doesn't push as much air and sounds great at lower volume, and I like to keep the neighbors happy. The Super 210, when turned up to it's sweet spot, can rattle the walls pretty good. Great solid bass tone too.
     
  9. eggman

    eggman Friend of Leo's

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    2 6L6s for this series

    Howdy,

    Mattdean: These amps had a 2 6L6 output tube compliment, instead of two EL84s. And you have good taste in amps, my friend :)
    My Super 112 is an underrated gem for big, juicy clean tones. And for Bakersfield shimmery, clean twang with a Tele? I prefer this amp to a BF Twin, so help me!
    Just yesterday I was playing that rascal with my P-90 equipped Gibson LP Special tuned to open G. Those NOS Sylvania's were really blooming as I played "Honkey Tonk Woman", "Happy" and "Jumpin Jack Flash". Puure fun.

    Those SD Vintage P-90s even managed to just barely overdrive the Super 112 with the volume on 10. Tell us about your Super 60/210/112.

    Eggman
     
  10. Manolian

    Manolian Tele-Meister

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    I have a Super 60, got it used for $237.00 2 weeks ago, great amp for the money.
     
  11. Jethro

    Jethro Tele-Afflicted

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    Been the proud owner of the Super 60 since new. Wonderful amp for clean tone, and I never use the gain channel either. Had to replace the input jack but other than that no maintenance required. I usually keep the Presence at minimum. I've had many complements on the tone I get from my Tele through this amp. Very heavy amp for it's size though, I threw on a set of casters too.:lol:
     
  12. kitschking

    kitschking TDPRI Member

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    Hi, Ive had my S60 from about 1990, I have a review for it from a 1989 Guitar Player mag (email me for a copy) that said the designer was Mark Wentling. I tracked him down and emailed him for info and he kindly supplied this...

    Thank you for your email.

    I’d be happy to answer any questions about the Super 60.

    It followed the Champ 12, and The Twin, all made during my time at Fender from 1985 to mid 1989.

    Paul Rivera left Fender prior to the management buyout from CBS by Bill Schultz and team, which occurred in March of 1985. I’m not sure of Paul’s actual departure date, but it may have occurred in late 1984, as there was an exodus of people when CBS put the company on the block for liquidation.

    I designed the tube amps during this period, including a couple models (early 90s) after I left Fender in the summer of 1989 to become a partner in an export distribution company.

    I came to Fender from Music Man, and all of the amp designs from 85 onward were unique from Paul’s designs that were produced prior to that time. Paul actually worked in Fender marketing, and spent much of his time specifying the product designs, while other design engineers in Fender R&D performed the actual product development work. Regardless, Paul always had a hand in the final signoff, and the tweaking of any products produced during his time.

    I arrived just in time to move everything from Fullerton to Brea. Mostly sorting out the offices, and packing boxes, while doing a little work on the Champ 12 in between. The original concept for the Champ 12 came from Bill Hughes, (creator of the Ampeg SVT), but I had to heavily modify it to reduce parts count and cost. It needed to be a bare bones design. Bill left Fender in 85 to try working at Peavey in Mississippi, but he returned about a year or so later to rejoin me in R&D.

    In the first several months immediately after the buyout from CBS, we had a fair number of CBS built chassis, that were Work-In-Process (WIP) units that came out of the CBS factory just prior to the Fullerton shut-down.

    We purchased cabinets locally in Placentia and people in our Brea warehouse set up a small assembly line where they completed some Concerts, and I believe some Deluxes, and Champs. These were Rivera amps, with black faces and numbered knobs. They were sold in 85, maybe some still left in 86, however the chassis’s were actually built back in 84 before CBS closed the Fullerton factory. These amps were sold through our distribution channels to generate cash flow, but I don’t believe that they were ever actually marketed as our formal product line-up. I’m not sure.

    We also scrapped a lot of WIP electronics because we did not have the space to hold all of it. Various amplifier chassis, ARP Chroma Synthesizers, Rhoads Piano parts, etc.

    Paul is a good friend of mine. He actually spent time tutoring me on amp design when I first arrived at Music Man from MXR Innovations back in 1979. However, he had no involvement with any amplifier designs from at least late 1984 onward.

    The red knobs were also the result of a cost cutting effort. The molded knobs were made in Garden Grove and cost about a nickel each ($0.05). The traditional black numbered knobs were about $0.40 each. This could multiply out to a good cost savings on the bigger amps. We were tasked by marketing with coming up with a unique cosmetic look that would differentiate the new Fender amps from the old Fender amps. In part due to the pervasive quality issues of the CBS made stuff.

    No one, and I mean no one could agree on the new look. We built up many prototypes, and eventually ran out of time. Finally the word came down to engineering from marketing that we would use the Fender corporate colors of that time which could be found on the business cards and stationary. Red, Grey, and Black. The knobs naturally ended up being red, and we used grey grill cloth. The first protos were airbrushed in red guitar lacquer and looked pretty good, but the production knobs could never match the painted look, and we finally had to move on.

    I hope that his information is helpful.

    I forgot to mention that the Super 60 itself was a very cost conscious
    product.

    We were under great pressure to build a tube amp for minimal cost, as one of
    our leading competitors was Peavey, and Peavey had a very vertical factory.
    Fender only had the SUNN factory which relied on outside vendors for most
    component parts, so our costs were higher right from the start. (An
    identical amplifier could be made and sold for less from Peavey.)

    So the Super 60 could only have the five tubes which was pretty much the
    minimum for a 60 Watt amp with switch-able overdrive. Three of the tubes
    were for the power amp, leaving only two 12AX7s for the preamp with
    switch-able overdrive.

    It was difficult to get consistent performance out of so few parts. So there
    is some variation from unit to unit, and there are also a couple of parts
    that are hand selected at the time of manufacture to compensate for
    tolerances in the VACTROLS, potentiometers, and to a lesser extent the
    tubes. (Not the most ideal engineering design, but a compromise to get by on
    the price.)

    So some Super 60s will work better than others.

    There was also a rack mounting head version of the same amp with a fan and
    and LED level readout, but no speaker.

    The Super 60 speaker was the same as the one used in the Twin of that time.
    It was our design developed together with Eminence. We only had two 12 inch
    speakers then, the heavy duty (used in the Twin etc.) and a light duty (used
    in the Champ 12), both from Eminence.

    Best regards, Mark


    One thing that is bugging me in regards to the dating of the amp, the Electronic Test/Sound test label has two spaces. The Elec Test has a name, but the Sound test has a biro signature that is hard to read, is this a persons sig or a date letter code? There is also a blue sticker on the inside of the cab with AK. Is this a date code or a signature? Anyone know?
    Cheers,
    Glenn
     
  13. kitschking

    kitschking TDPRI Member

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    I remembered there were two other emails from Mark Wentling, one with general comments about the amp and another with more technical stuff, I asked him some questions that Matti from Finland (hes on here and other Fender forums) asked me to ask him. Hope these may help or be of interest to people...

    Hi Glenn,

    I am glad to be of some help. I only wish that I had more time to devote to
    it. I have fond memories of those days tinkering away on guitar amps.

    Now I manage people in an engineering department, and rarely have time to
    fire up a soldering iron. Plus today's surface mounted components are too
    small to see, much less experiment with.

    I think it is really interesting that there are players out there who really
    like the Super 60 amps.

    Like I said, they were kind of a mixed bag for Fender. Some guys really
    liked them while others weren't so sure. Part of that was the inherent
    variability from unit to unit due to the bare bones parts count, but I also
    learned during those years that there is no such thing as the perfect amp
    that can get every popular sound and please every player.

    The 60s were solid performers, good output coupled together with a great
    speaker that I developed together with Bob Gault (Sr.) at Eminence.

    On that amp it was one of the last models to have the PCB laid out manually
    with black tape on Mylar using a light table. (The Twin, Dual Showman, and
    Champ 12 were done this way as well.)

    The people that we had assisting in that part of the product development
    were difficult to work with as they did not really understand the nuances of
    the electrical designs. At that time upper engineering management at Fender
    felt that electrical design engineers were too high paid to perform such
    rudimentary work. Regardless, we were not that highly paid, but they
    believed in a division of labor. The problem is that in a guitar amp, the
    overall layout is just as important as the circuit design. They are one in
    the same. Ergo why so people prefer the performance level of handmade
    amplifiers.

    When I was at Music Man and MXR, we (the design engineers) laid out our own
    circuit boards. At Fender they had non-technical drafting people lay out the
    PCBs. After a couple of years I was able to change that by helping to bring
    in our first CAD design systems together with Cal Perkins. The CAD systems
    allowed the engineers to lay out the PCBs directly using a computer, and as
    a result they became much better products. The first guitar amps to use CAD
    were the 85 and 185 Series solid-state amps.

    The Super 60 was a particularly tough case as the guy who was working with
    me on that board layout was fairly clueless. He was a technician of sorts
    and it was his first project. I had to have him redo his work quite a few
    times. After awhile he began to resent all of the redesign work and the
    project became contentious. Eventually there came a point where we had to
    make a product release, but I never felt that the finished product was as
    good as it could have been.

    That's another reason why it is so cool that guys like you and Matti are
    into the amps 20+ years later.

    Some people read way too much into how design decisions were made in some
    classic musical instrument products, when 9 times out of 10 it was the
    result of a compromise just to get a product out the door. Many times the
    compromises were made by non-musicians. Fender, Gibson, Marshall, VOX, are
    full of such stories.

    I should get back to work now.

    Best regards, Mark

    and....

    Hi Glenn,

    A key element of this amplifier design is that it had to be built on a
    budget, and so we tried to maximize what could be done in the preamp with
    only two 12AX7 tubes.

    It becomes a real challenge to make a two tube preamp have a good clean
    character and then use the same tubes to make a good overdrive. With more
    tubes we could have had more tonal options, plus the amps would be much more
    consistent from unit to unit, because component tolerances do not end up
    being as apparent in the sound.

    This design is very dependent on the tolerances of the two 12AX7 tubes, the
    hop-off end resistance of the gain pots, and the VACTROL characteristics.

    Some Super 60 models sounded very good, and some sounded not so good. C104 0.68uF does work together with C1 0.22uF to set the low-end bass
    characteristics of the clean sound. Within limits you can scale C104
    together with C1 by an equal percentage and the two should track closely
    resulting in the clean sound remaining virtually unchanged, but doing so
    effect the overdrive sound.

    C2 0.1uF performs a similar function to C1 at low gain settings while in the
    overdrive mode.

    C1 (in clean mode) and C2 (in overdrive mode) attenuate the signal above a
    frequency let's call it F1. Below F1 the attenuation is greatly reduced,
    which effectively acts as a bass boost. C104 begins to increase gain at
    roughly the same F1 frequency, effectively acting as a bass cut (or mid-high
    boost). The two networks together complement each other resulting in a net
    flat response with some remaining bass bump on the very low end.

    So if you move both caps by the same percentage amount, the net response
    should be about the same within limits. If you double C1 and C104, the clean
    channel will be close to the original sound but when the gain is turned up
    in overdrive mode, there will be more bass response.

    One reason for limiting the bass response in overdrive mode by using the
    0.68uF cap, is to keep the overdrive from sounding too flabby and
    uncontrolled at very high gain settings.

    Using the 0.68 cap however does provide additional gain overall which needed
    to be maximized because we only had the two tubes.

    If you don't intend to be using extreme high gain settings, (which is
    somewhat limited because of the low tube count), you could remove C104 from
    the circuit all together. Doing so will remove the effective midrange boost
    (bass cut), thereby giving you more low end, plus lower maximum gain
    overall.

    Remove C104 and then increase C1 to adjust (reduce) the amount of bass in
    the clean mode. (Removing C104 will make the clean mode sound bassier due to the loss of mid boost in V102B.) Increasing C1 will move the turnover point
    lower effectively reducing bass.

    The additional benefit of removing C104 is that the overall gain will be
    lower, less midrange, more bass and rubbery, which sounds like what Matti is
    looking for.

    So you have two alternatives,:

    1) Increase C1, C2, and C104 by similar percentages to increase bass in
    overdrive mode, but still keep maximum gain, and about the same clean sound.

    Or

    2) Remove C104 altogether, and increase C1 and C2 to reduce bass in clean
    and low-gain overdrive mode to taste. Removing C104 will reduce maximum
    overall gain.

    > - How to keep the gain pot from cutting bass when it's not at 10?
    > - R148, the negative feedback loop resistor? Can it be removed or at least
    > its effect decreased?

    Yes, as with any Fender power amp like this you can increase R148 or even
    remove it. This will decrease the damping of the output stage resulting in a
    looser sound with low frequency cone resonance becoming more pronounced, and
    a rising high-end characteristic as the speaker impedance rises at high
    frequencies.

    The downside of doing this is reduced effect of the presence control, as
    well as increased noise, and distortion in the output.

    Alternatively you can increase C9 from 0.1uF to something much larger, say
    10uF, effectively turning the Presence control into a damping control. Just
    try it and see how it sounds.

    > - Which are the key components in the tone stack and what are sensible value
    > limits for them for experimenting?

    Anything goes in the tone stack. It is too complex to summarize in an email.
    There are many articles online these days. Something we didn't have in the
    80s. You can move values up and down and listen to the effect. Just remember
    that there is some fairly high DC voltage on the side of the tone-stack
    connected to V102B. The caps you use, need to be rated properly (200 VDC
    min) and watch your fingers since they will hold charge.

    > Thanks for sending him the questions!!
    >
    > -Matti
    >
    > Thats about it. I think with these issues solved that will be a great help.
    > Thank you for your time, I hope this is not intrusive.
    > Yours,
    > Glenn Scott

    Hope that helps you guys. Have fun.

    Best regards, Mark


    There you have it,
    Cheers,
    Glenn
     
  14. robt57

    robt57 Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Does a Super pro tube series count, 410

    Has a few more tubes than a Super 60, well 4 more.

    Is the Super 60 a tube driven reverb like the Super is?
    Does it use 1/2 of one of the 12AXs for the reverb ?

    2 6l6 60 watt, they must share a lot of the same circuit past the preamp.

    Grabbed one a few months back, and it is a great sounding amp.

    Does the super 60 do the push pull bright on the 1st channel ??
     
  15. bluesfordan

    bluesfordan Friend of Leo's

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    had a super 60 in snakeskin way back when they were brand new. I think it was my first master volume amp. I remember it was fairly heavy. I also remember a nasty hum, and this was back in the day when even the thought of changing tubes was a technical nightmare better left to overpaid professionals, let alone changing components.

    I was interested more in the dirt channel than I was in the clean, so I really don't have anything to say on that side. I was also experimenting with rack effects at the time, so I often played the amp with all sorts of stuff going on. In its defense, I think some of my recordings with it rank up there in my favorite tones yet committed to tape.

    think I might have seen my old amp in a store, but I did not bother to try it as I did not have any of my own guitars with me. The next time I was there, it was gone.
     
  16. kitschking

    kitschking TDPRI Member

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    To Robt57

    I dont think the Fender Pro Tube series is in the same family, there was the Super 60, the 112 and the 210..all red knobs designed around the 88 - 92 era, yours was from the 93 - 95 era I think.
    The 60 is tube driven, 2 6L6's like the Super Pro and has 2 x 12AX7 and a 12AT7 for phase inverter. The reverb is solid state, not tube. One of the AX7 tubes is for the OD channel. it is bought into action when you switch the channel on.

    " Does the super 60 do the push pull bright on the 1st channel ?? "

    If you mean can a pot be pulled out for brightness, then no, I think maybe the 112 or 210 may have had that...

    Hope this helps.
    Glenn
     
  17. robt57

    robt57 Telefied Ad Free Member

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    ACK
     
  18. ccuwan

    ccuwan TDPRI Member

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    +1 for Super series amps

    I have both a Super 60 and a Super 210.

    Both the Super 210 and the Super 112 have a pull notch filter on the presence knob and a pull bright switch on the clean volume knob. These features are not on the Super 60.

    There are in fact 5 models in the series:

    Super 60 combo (12 inch Eminence)
    Super 60 head
    Super 60 rack mount
    Super 112
    Super 210

    We are in very good company with our appreciation of the Super 60

    Following is an eBay ad that I have posted elsewhere but saved for just such a forum:

    [​IMG]

    Fender Super 60 Aerosmith Brad Whitford
    Celebrity Owned Fender Super 60!!

    For auction is a Fender Super 60 (Serial # LO-62295) owned by Brad Whitford of Aerosmith. This amp came out of his personal collection, and was played on tour or in the studio. Amp shows road wear, but is in excellent playable condition.

    This amp was made by Fender between 1988-1992. Brad used two of these, nicknamed 'Ginger Lynn' and 'Amber Lynn'. This is Ginger. Used live on either 'Pump' or 'Get a Grip' world tours. Amp has a metal 'Property of Aerosmith' tag on the back.

    Winner of this auction will receive full documentation (in a limited editon embossed leather case) including a signed Certificate of Authenticity from Brad Whitford and a unique photocard of the amp (similar to the one pictured).

    Also included is a limited edition eBay Tour Laminate (see picture) and one of Brad's signature picks.

    Amp is sold as it came from the Aerosmith warehouse. It has been inspected by a qualified amp tech, but for originality sake has only had minor if any changes (fuses, etc). The amp is sold AS-IS and guaranteed to not be DOA, but it still may need work at some point.

    The amp will be professionally packed and shipped with insurance to an address in the Continental United States and Canada only.
    Please check my other auctions in the next month as Brad is clearing out over 30 guitars and over 50 amps/cabinets.

    Please note: I do not have any of Joe Perry's or Steven Tyler's gear for sale.

    Also, guitartech1 is the only authorized eBay ID selling gear for Brad Whitford of Aerosmith. Beware of scammers. Check the link to my auctions on Aeroforceone.com.(the official Aerosmith website).


    This is a link to the Aerosmith site on which Brad is seen with one of his Super 60s
    http://www.aeroforceone.com/index.cfm/pk/view/cd/NAA/cdid/1018775/pid/302766

    Many have spoken of the weight of these amps and due to my escalating age I have broken my Super 60 into a separate head and 3 different cabs. My primary cab is a Super Reverb size with 4 CTS Alnico speakers that I bought out of a SFSR. I have a second 2x12 cab that I haul around when needed and of course have the original 1x12 cab that the Super 60 combo came in. BTW when you remove the electronics and create a separate head the weight drops from about 55 lbs to about 33 lbs.

    This is the head and 4x10 cab I built.......yes I swapped out the red knobs for black:
    [​IMG]
     
  19. von spets

    von spets TDPRI Member

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    It's great that Mark's writing is here open for public. He was very gracious to put his time to answer in a really deep technical way, very friendly designer!!

    My observations after some mods I did some time ago (I'm a beginner in amp tweaking!):
    - The PCB board, its cables and its orientation (upside down) is a pain in the A for modders and for any repair work. It really kills any desire to tweak the amp to its full potential.
    - IMO the easiest way to make the Super 60 sound better is to experiment with negative feedback loop resistor which controls how the Presence pot behaves. It defines how tight or soft the amp is.
    - I recommend adding a bias pot, it's a pretty simple task to do.

    Or just enjoy it as it is!! A great amp!

    Unfortunately, I didn't try all Mark's suggestions because suddenly my band mate offered me a 1974 Deluxe Reverb and I put it side by side with my Super 60. Sorry guys, don't shoot me, but my S60 was a clear number two. I let it go and now I'm a vintage PTP guy. :oops:

    - Matti
     
  20. jazzblaster

    jazzblaster NEW MEMBER!

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    Soup 60...

    This is my first post on this forum, however, I have been a browser for about a year or so. Picking up a Super 60 on a trade this weekend :D Super excited!
     
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