Fender Mustang help?...most frustrating guitar I ever had...lonng...

[Mojohand40]

Ok; I got a shiny new Fender Vintera Mustang '65.
I got mixed emotions. On the one hand I love the jangly-garage-band-'60s-kinda-cheap-surf-sound.
I love the look and the build quality is REALLY nice. This thing is a beautifully made little guitar, fret work, finish, neck is wonderful. .

Now here is where I'm ready to throw it on the ground and stomp it. The tremolo.

What a POS design.

So it came strung with 10's from Fender, (which seem too light for a shorter scale guitar) and the action was just too low. String buzz here and there. Checked neck relief and it looked good, so I figured I'd simply raise the bridge.

And here is where the decent to madness begins.

The raising of the bridge seemed to help a bit, but now the trem seemed "off" ...hmmm....ok, well I ordered some nice 11's half round strings, figuring may as well change the strings and adjust things a bit.

Well, the 11's pulled the trem arm down a lot and now the break angle over the "roller bridge" (More on that pos design later) was simply off. Ok, raise the trem. Two allen screws, loosen strings first, etc...

well that makes it worse...Ok lower trem bar, repeat. Now the strings touch the edge of the roller bridge, making the "roll" part pretty useless. Honestly why is the back of the bridge so high compared to the slots in the rollers? Why???

Anyway, now I got 11's (which play and sound WAYYYYYY better then 10's on this) the trem is lowered so the arm is nice and parallel to the body and the posts look at least a little more perpendicular to the body, BUT....you can't actually use the trem anymore because it's basically a guitar detuner.

Out of tune whenever I use it slightly. WTF?

The sad thing is I like this guitar and want to keep it, but without a trem it's not what I want. I would also prefer heavier gauge strings on it.

Any mustang players out there have advice?

 

[Mike_LA]

Don't own that trem system but on all my trem guitars I use locking tuners which really keeps them in tune... Best of luck

 

[pugnax]

Two things. Judging from the pics on the Fender site, they’ve got the strings straight through. I wrap mine so the break is much sharper. Second, if you have a soft spot for offset guitars you owe it to yourself to invest in a Mastery bridge.

https://imgur.com/a/cHE1sQT

 

[SecretSquirrel]

Could one factor be that the bigger string gauge is binding in the nut? I'd make sure the nut slots are clear and lubricated. Plus lubricate all the moving parts, if you haven't already tried that. Maybe use graphite from a pencil. The more acute break angle that pugnax describes sounds worth trying too.

That's a really cool guitar and I'm curious about the problem since I was kinda longing for one when I "bit the (Squier) Bullet" when they were on sale so cheap. Different bridge, though, no trem, and different pickups (HBs, which I changed for lipsticks).

 

[JL_LI]

You can't change poor tremelo design, but the design may not be the problem. When I first got my Gretsch, the Bigsby would never return the strings to pitch. I tried nut butter, but that didn't help much. Action and intonation, even without the Bigsby, weren't as good as they should have been. I filed the nut, or more accurately, reworked it with 600 grit sand paper. Now 600 grit isn't a proper nut file. I know that, but...

I folded the paper to make a stiff cutter just wide enough to deepen the nut slot. The paper inevitably widened the slot just a bit. I did this for all 6 strings folding a new piece of paper for each string. My action was then low enough and I could play cowboy chords in tune. What I didn't expect but was thrilled to find is that strings returned to pitch as long as I didn't use the Bigsby too aggressively. No more nut butter. Half step intervals returned to tune flawlessly. You don't need more than that for surf. No dive bombing, but surfing is done on a board, not a torpedo.

 

[Mojohand40]

Two things. Judging from the pics on the Fender site, they’ve got the strings straight through. I wrap mine so the break is much sharper. Second, if you have a soft spot for offset guitars you owe it to yourself to invest in a Mastery bridge.

https://imgur.com/a/cHE1sQT

I wrapped the strings as well (through from the pickup side to the back, then under the bar and over the bridge).
Here is where I wonder...do the strings then touch the edge of the bridge bracket before going into the slots?..
I keep thinking the break is too steep in that mine do, But if I raise the trem up to clear the lip of the bridge bracket, it will be too high..(does that make sense?)

Also, what gauge strings do you run on yours?

thanks!!!!

 

[BorderRadio]

I love Mustangs, I used to own a VM Mustang and I'm restoring a '64 at the moment.

Locking tuners are meaningless for a vibrato given the string is wound on the post correctly. With all vibratos, one needs to rectify/optimize the nut and bridge first.

You say 'roller bridge' but the Vintera doesn't have a roller bridge, it has the rocking floating Mustang bridge. But never mind that for a minute. You will need to adjust the spring locations under the plate if you move to 11s. Then you need to set it up again. The 'hot dog' bar needs to be set high enough for the strings to clear the back lip of the bridge plate, and only touch the saddles. If your arm sits in a weird position even after spring adjustment, then take it out and bend it to the location that fits you.

NOW here's the rub. I've worked very hard at this vibrato design. I owned over a dozen Bigsby guitars, and also set up numerous Floating Trem/Les Trem/Strats/G&Ls etc. I can make those all work and at first the Mustang was no different. Once I learned all the tips and trick, I could dive bomb the Mustang and it wouldn't sound like complete trash on the return. A locking bridge might of helped that. Anyways, after awhile, I noticed I couldn't get mine to return to pitch. I had a Staytrem bridge, so that was fine. I tried MIJ plates, and even a mid-60s vintage vibrato--it was always the same pis-poor return-to-pitch.

The culprit is the plate "knife edge" fulcrum points. They wear over time. The resist the bar coming back to pitch. This is the weakest link in the design, and the only upgrade is the Performer Mustang that recently came out. It has a reinforced, hardened steel plate under the main mounting plate. I don't own one, but this is only way I'd return to the Dynamic Vibrato.

To make my Mustang reliable, I hard tailed it. Hope that helps..

 

[BorderRadio]

I wrapped the strings as well (through from the pickup side to the back, then under the bar and over the bridge).
Here is where I wonder...do the strings then touch the edge of the bridge bracket before going into the slots?..
I keep thinking the break is too steep in that mine do, But if I raise the trem up to clear the lip of the bridge bracket, it will be too high..(does that make sense?)

Also, what gauge strings do you run on yours?

thanks!!!!

You want to raise the hot dog bar that high, it's how it works. The post should be sitting near vertical, 90 degrees to the plate. Only spring adjustments under the plate can help you here, and unfortunately it's a guessing game. Mine had 3 positions, vintage vibes have only 2 (on the bottom of the pivot posts). I used 11s.

 

[henkka]

This used to be a good guide, but the pics seem to have decreased in quality. Maybe there is still something of interest there.

https://www.jag-stang.com/forum/topic/922-a-bit-on-how-i-set-my-trem-up-for-whammy-use/

 

[Mojohand40]

....snip.... You will need to adjust the spring locations under the plate if you move to 11s. Then you need to set it up again. The 'hot dog' bar needs to be set high enough for the strings to clear the back lip of the bridge plate, and only touch the saddles. If your arm sits in a weird position even after spring adjustment, then take it out and bend it to the location that fits you.

snips..

Ahhh..I see. Okay, I will try adjusting spring tension then raising the hot dog bar so strings clear the lip of the bridge plate. I looked on line and found a pic showing how to move springs to increase tension.

In the end I just want a subtle little "surf" shimmer now and again, no dive-bombing-floyd-rose-pryotechnics...just a gentle bend on a chord once in awhile.

I'd get a duo-sonic if I wanted a short scale hard tail! ....But I really want to make this work...as it's a frustrating but absolutely captivating guitar.

Thanks for the help!!

 

[radiocaster]

I've got several, and I really don't have any answers. You can lower that thing in the back, it'll work better, but as for keeping it in tune, really, no.

I wish I had gotten into another guitar model instead, like Duo Sonic II, possibly parts guitars.

I've tried pretty much everything, except a real roller bridge. One day I may try that too. Don't know if it will help.

 

[Peegoo]

The Mustang vibrato is quirky, but it has to be properly adjusted to play in tune. You don't need to replace the bridge; you just need to set it up for proper operation.

A few things:

1. Make sure the vibrato is strung properly. It should be like this:

2. The two springs under the tailpiece plate need to be in the correct slots on the studs, based on the string gauge you use. With 11s or 12s, the middle or low slots usually work best.

3. Once you adjust the height of the stop bar so the vibrato arm is in the neutral position, recheck tuning and then pull or push the bridge (the saddles unit) so it is in the middle of its range of motion. It is designed to rock slightly in the two steel cups. This rocking motion is what prevents the strings from sliding over the saddles. It is also the reason why the two little hex screws for bridge height are pointed on their ends.

Recheck all setup criteria (neck relief, string action, nut height, pickup height, intonation, etc.) and adjust as necessary.

A cool trick is to cut a little round piece of hard plastic (guitar pick) to fit into the hole for the vibrato arm's tension screw. Remove the screw. With the arm in its hole, drop the little plastic puck into the tension screw hole, and reinstall the tension screw. The little plastic puck allows you to snug the screw against the arm without it chewing up the metal. Leave the arm in; otherwise the little puck will fall out.

 

[BorderRadio]

Ahhh..I see. Okay, I will try adjusting spring tension then raising the hot dog bar so strings clear the lip of the bridge plate. I looked on line and found a pic showing how to move springs to increase tension.

In the end I just want a subtle little "surf" shimmer now and again, no dive-bombing-floyd-rose-pryotechnics...just a gentle bend on a chord once in awhile.

I'd get a duo-sonic if I wanted a short scale hard tail! ....But I really want to make this work...as it's a frustrating but absolutely captivating guitar.

Thanks for the help!!

Trust me, I did to, and I did every trick in the book, except a Mastery (looks weird on the little body). I was able to get the shimmer thing, until I couldn't do even that. Frustration when all my Bigsby guitars can dive all day everyday with no problems.

Anyways, FWIW, here's the under side of a Performer Mustang vibrato showing the fulcrum plate. Not my pic, from here or OSG IIRC.

 

[pugnax]

I wrapped the strings as well (through from the pickup side to the back, then under the bar and over the bridge).
Here is where I wonder...do the strings then touch the edge of the bridge bracket before going into the slots?..
I keep thinking the break is too steep in that mine do, But if I raise the trem up to clear the lip of the bridge bracket, it will be too high..(does that make sense?)

Also, what gauge strings do you run on yours?

thanks!!!!

Interesting. I just went and pulled the old Hosco bridge out of the parts bin and can totally see how too steep a break might rub up against the back of the bridge. Yeah, that isn't good. That's one of the things that make the fancypants Mastery bridges so nice - there's virtually no limit to the break angle on the backside of the bridge. Like the other posters have mentioned, you might want to go in and check out the springs in the trem assembly.

I usually run Thomastik Power Brights with the heavy bottom (.010, .013, .018, .028, .042, .050). I also don't really nosedive too much, and don't use have a trem arm, but instead just use the palm of my hand (or just grab it) for a bit of surfy wiggle here and there. Honestly, especially after upgrading the bridge, but really after adding a Tusq nut and getting the slots correct, I've had zero tuning stability problems.

That being said, it just occurred to me that it's relevant to mention that mine isn't a Fender - it's a one off made by a Russian luthier (Duoton) and is 25.5 scale, so any advice I have is probably useless!

 

[Mojohand40]

Little follow up. Okay, I adjusted the spring position awhile back, and interestingly the Vintera mustang spring post have only two positions (or spring grooves) not three like in the pics in this thread. That seems ok, as I don't think there would be a lot of difference in the middle and high positions anyway.
I put the springs on the lowest position and strung it back with 11's. After a lot of little adjustments, it did improve the string angle and trem position and floating bridge a bit.
After a week or so, I restrung with 10 half rounds, and after some more adjustments, got it pretty dang perfect, in that the bridge is the right height, the trem arm is parallel to the body and the the spring post holding the "hotdog" is nearly perfectly perpendicular to the body.
While I think the 11's actually sound slightly better (maybe my imagination) the 10's are perfectly fine and don't feel too slinky on the shortened scale.
All in all, this guitar just requires a bit lighter touch to play and sound best.
I can nail a really good Hank Marvin / Shadows sound (yes Hank played a strat..but still)
It definitely can get that really early 60's kind of go-go sound.

Really a nice guitar for that type of surf/instrumental type stuff.

The only issue I have now is that the bridge keeps lowering every so often. evidently this is kind of common with this bridge setup, as the string vibrations and trem action tends to cause the threads to back out a bit.

Eventually I will apply a tiny/tiny bit of lok tite to the threads and this should fix it.

All in all, I'd say that this guitar is a bit finicky with setup etc. but once it's right it is an absolute blast to play. I'm digging the short scale and 7.5" radius fretboard.

Tuning stability is fine, but the floating trem idea requires a little bit of finesse to get everything in tune. If one string goes out, you really have to tune everything ...twice.

Like I said when everything is aligned....it's magical...

This is only the second mustang I've ever played, the other one was a few years back, and it was a vintage one.

As for the vintera line, I've managed to check out a few at some local shops and...WOW...they are really some of the best (IMO) things fender has done in years. Really top quality fit finish, everything. Vintage feel and look, but (IMO) BETTER than the "real" thing.

Anyway, just thought I'd give an update in case anyone following this thread was curious about the newer Mustang.

I've been playing this thing everyday for awhile now and it's a keeper. The tone is not a strat and not a tele, but just something different. Kind of a baby jag, but still it's own beast.