Fender Deluxe Reverb RI vs. Super Sonic 22

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by pjmuck, Jan 5, 2011.

  1. mrtoulouse

    mrtoulouse Tele-Meister

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    The super sonic sounds great imo. Very nice amp with very attractive drive channel... On the other hand, the effects loop didn't work particularly well for adding delay on the two ss22s I've tried..... If you are into a more fluent fusion style lead or some of that 80's hair stuff, you will absolutely need a digital delay to get you there, and that's what mainly turned me off on the super sonic. I was not able to get a nice and smooth lead sound from the effects loop; to me it sounded as if the loop was not actually after the pre-amp stage :rolleyes:.

    That aside the amp also was a bit stiffer and tighter in response than a deluxe reverb, which I guess is how they get the dirt channel to be as tight as it is. The deluxe just feels so much more natural to play. But imo the reverb quickly drowns the tone of the drri, making for an unclear and undefined sound, so careful on that reverb knob... at 2-3 you are already getting what the ss22 will give you on max.

    personally I would pick a deluxe reverb and get a nice distortion pedal and delay.. That will give you a very versatile setup and a darn good sounding one too.
     
  2. ruger9

    ruger9 Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    Just bumping this one...

    I've been seriously considering this amp, but realized today that it's a SS recto. Not happy about that. I now see there's some question as to whether the reverb drive & recovery is tube or SS? I had a 60 Watt Super-Sonic, and they were tube stages for the reverb. But the 22W version has THREE LESS 12AX7s... can anyone confirm what the reverb drive & recovery stages are? (I see someone on page 1 looked at the schematics, but I'm not sure it was the 22W version... I don't see it on the Fender sight, only the 60W version?)

    I gotta' say, as excited as I was about this amp, with a SS recto AND (if it has) SS reverb drive & recovery, I'm no longer interested...
     
  3. DOGMA Dunn

    DOGMA Dunn Friend of Leo's

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    They are great amps.
     
  4. red57strat

    red57strat Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    The SS22 has tube driver and recovery for the reverb. The schematic is available on Fender's website.

    I tried one and liked it a lot.
     
  5. ruger9

    ruger9 Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    Then why does the 22 have THREE LESS 12AX7s than the 60? (I can't read schems that well, just easy stuff like the Champion 600 :lol: )
     
  6. mikiedreb

    mikiedreb TDPRI Member

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  7. ruger9

    ruger9 Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    OK, so maybe 2 of the 3 extra 12AX7s the SS60 has is for the fx loop send & return (the 60W had adjustable levels for fx send & return)... that leaves 1 extra 12AX7 the 60W has that the 22W doesn't... what's it for?
     
  8. ruger9

    ruger9 Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but since I can't read schematics...

    The older 60W version has 3 more 12AX7s than the 22W version.... 1 of those 12AX7s on the 60W were for fx send & return. So the 22W has a solid-state, non-adjustable, fx loop.

    Now, that still leaves 2-12AX7s. I thought maybe the reverb on the 22W was also solid-state for drive & recovery, but you say the schem says the reverb drive & recovery on the 22W is indeed tube? But that still leaves an "extra 2s" 12AX7 the 60W has that the 22W doesn't, so I'm not convinced... it sure looks to me like the reverb on the new 22W is solid-state drive & recovery. Are you sure it was the 22-WATT combo, and not the 60-WATT combo schem you were reading?

    Here's the tube assignments for the older 60W combo:

    V1 –12AX7- V1A is the input stage, V1B is the first gain stage of the drive channel (between gain1 and gain2)

    V2 -12AX7- Used in the Clean channel. V2A is the usual BF-type post tonestack/volume stage. after that, there is the preshaping filter (part of the Vibrolux/Bassman-switching) followed by V2B as a buffer stage

    V3 -12AX7- Used in the Burn channel as second (V3A) and third (V3B) gain stage, followed by the tone stack and master volume

    V4 -12AX7- V4A is a buffer stage after the switching relay between clean and burn. V4B is the effects loop send buffer stage

    V5 -12AX7-Effects Loop - V5A is the effects loop return buffer stage, V5B is the reverb mixer stage

    V6 12AT7 Phase Inverter

    V7 6L6GC Power Section
    V8 6L6GC Power Section

    V9 12AT7 - Reverb send stage

    V10 12AX7 - Reverb makeup/buffer



    I wish Fender would just put out a damn tube assignment chart on the newer 22W, it would make all this alot easier.
     
  9. ruger9

    ruger9 Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    ok, more digging gave me this from the Fender forum:

    Super-Sonic 22

    V1 is for both channels
    V2A is for the burn channel, V2B is (recovery/buffer) for both channels
    V3 is the reverb driver (12AT7)
    V4A is reverb recovery, V4B is another gain stage for both channels (some kind of additional recovery/buffer)
    V5 is PI (12AT7)

    If this is true, Fender as eliminated several tube stages in this amp, yet kept the tone very similar? Have they replaced some tube stages with solid state stages or something? (besides the fx loop)? Do they have solid state buffer stages in this thing, or what?
     
  10. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    My apologies for my error on the reverb circuitry....looks like tubes there.
    Learning through living, eh?
     
  11. ruger9

    ruger9 Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    Yeah, tube reverb. BUT- if (1) 12AX7 on the 60W, for the fx loop send & return, was replaced by opamps in the 22W, that still leaves (2) 12AX7s the 60W has that the 22W doesn't. So what did Fender do? What functions did they feel needed these tubes in the 60W, but apparently felt WEREN'T needed in the 22W?
     
  12. filmix2

    filmix2 Tele-Holic

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    Ive read both schematics.... They doubled up the reverb drive to both side of one valve...
    They dedicated an entire tube to the burn channel and they tubed the fx recovery....
    All in all the circuits have similar gain stages from end to end.. but Fender was a bit more frivolous when they designed the 60's tube complement
     
  13. ruger9

    ruger9 Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    From the 60W tube assignments listed above, it looks like the burn channel got 1 1/2 tubes? (3 gain stages)

    So your saying, with the reverb, where the 60W had an entire AT7 for the send and an entire AX7 for the return, on the 22W they are using both sides of an AT7 for the same job?

    So, the 22W got rid of the tube for fx send/return... that accounts for one 12AX7. Also, it combined the reverb send & return to 1 tube instead of 2, so that accounts for another 12AX7. There's still 1 12AX7 "more" in the 60W than in the 22W... any idea why?
     
  14. filmix2

    filmix2 Tele-Holic

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    Ok just double checked... Slightly different than I remember

    SS22
    v1a (12ax7) Both channels (What is this called?)
    v1b (12ax7) Volume on Vintage or Gain1 on Burn

    v2a(12ax7) Gain2 Burn
    v2b(12ax7) Both Channels

    V3a & V3b (12at7) Reverb Drive

    V4a &V4b(12ax7) Reverb Recovery

    V5a & V5b (12at7) Phase Inverter

    SS60
    V1a (12ax7) Both channels
    V1b (12ax7) Gain 1 Burn

    V2a & V2b (12ax7) Vintage channel
    V3a & V3b (12ax7) Gain2 - Burn Channel

    V4a & V4b (12ax7) FX Send
    V5a & V5b (12ax7) FX Return

    V6 (12at7) Phase Inverter

    V7 & V8 (6L6) Power Tubes

    V9 (12at7) Reverb Drive
    V10 (12ax7) Reverb Recover
     
  15. ruger9

    ruger9 Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    Nice!! Exactly what I was looking for... looks like Fender just "doubled up" (or "shared") some gain stages between channels on the 22, which they didn't on the 60 (they just added more tubes). And of course made the fx loop on the 22 opamps.

    Thanks again!
     
  16. mikehixx

    mikehixx TDPRI Member

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    In defense of the Burn channel, I find it very versatile and qhen set up correctly, capable of some nice low-gain AC15 type saturation, all the way up to a low level Marshall crunch. People call this the gainiest amp in the Fender line up -- and that it might be -- but its still nowhere near the territory of modern high gain amps like Mesa, etc. When fully cranked it reminds me more of a 80s Marshall sound. Either way, I really like the different types of tone you can draw out of the 2 gain stages, and the levels of compression and transparency that are there. Plus it has a 3-band EQ, which is nice.

    I should add that I have the SS 60-watt version, and only find the Bassman voiceing useable with single coils. The Vibrolux tone is like staring in to the sun, man. Bright!

    If I'm not mistaken, I believe the circuitry of the SS 22 is the DRRI circuitry, plus a fat switch. I've heard the reverb isn't quite as good (both amps are tube reverb) in the SS, but that's only if you're looking for the deepest of deep.

    I'd say go SS. You're getting a lot more amp for the same price.
     
  17. Dezzy

    Dezzy Tele-Meister

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    Snap, I don't think he would be upgrading like he mentioned, I think it's more of a downgrade, deluxe amps have a better clean channel in my opinion, and most people like a nice clean channel over a dirty one, as if you have a good clean channel you can always add an overdrive pedal for more rock stuff, I also hear the sonics drive is nothing to write home about, lots of people say they have a common problem for hissing 2 months out of the box. I got a hot rod deluxe over the sonic, as in the shop the HRD clean channel sounded lots better than the sonic's, it had more chime and sparkle and great with the boss sustain pedal, pedals take to it really good as well, I know people say the drive channel is crap, but the latest model I have is just fine, if you keep the drive under 7 it really sounds great, more drive is to much, but hey I bought it for the clean channel, if I played a lot of rock i would have gotten a vox, thinking of getting a vox ac30 as a 2nd amp for rock.
     
  18. Dezzy

    Dezzy Tele-Meister

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    snap, I think the deluxe amps sound better clean, they are known for it, I know they are not great at getting overdrive, but not many amps have 2 great sounding channels, one always seems to impact the other, I like clean channels over drive, so I always try to find that first as pedals can be added for the drive later on. I choose the hot rod deluxe over the sonic, as the clean channel sounded lots better in the shop, and the sonic 22 had a hissing sound which I here is common, in the UK the new HRD was nearly £800, £700 if ordered out of town, but for another £200 I could have had a deluxe reverb or sonic, but to be totally true full I could not tell any mager difference between the hrd and DRs clean channel, the sonic felt as if it was the cheaper amp out the 3, I had to ask myself did the extra £200 really make the amps circuits more complex, or would It be paying for the extra vibrato, I think the vibrato, and I am not a fan of vibrato so it was never going to be used.
     
  19. davesimpson

    davesimpson TDPRI Member

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    The hrd is the cheaper of the bunch. Made in mexico vs made in USA. The hrd is also a 2 channel amp but the drive channel sounds like garbage. I choose the Supersonic 22 because the clean channel sounds as good as the drri plus an actual useable overdrive channel. I know the full on burn isn't for everyone but with the 2 gain control knobs anyone can find a sound to suit their purposes. You just have to take the time to tweak the gain controls and 3 band eq. SS22 great amp IMO.
     
  20. Rollo

    Rollo TDPRI Member

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    Look at the vibro king schematic compare loop drive receive no big deal done close

    Many folks and me will or do sell loop kits some tube some solid state

    If I remember lord valve or London sound?....did a beautiful flat from birth to death loop circuit using 12au7. I am going to cobble together the circuit but use 12DW7. So 12ax7 section can be tweaked for noise for receive tube half the 12au7 side kicks the current to the effects lemme see if I can find it on an iPad

    Having a partially amputated thumb makes me the fastest one finger iPad monkey tappers but damn the damn wider hammer head thumb covers four chars. Lemme look for 12au7 post

    Look at this
    http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/FXloop1.jpg. Nice flat loop but better cathode follower circuits are out there. Do 12au7 to drive 12ax7 triode to receive sections of 12au7

    Google tube effect loop Schematic. My many appear....have at it, look at VK it



    Tons here

    But my VK doesn't do crap special
     
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