Fender 9.09mm tuner hole diameter?

[omlove]

I have done extensive research on this yet another "first world problem" and have to ask for your help...

1. Typical vintage style tuner Gotoh or Kluson 6 in line has 11/32" or 0.345" or 8.8mm tuner hole diameter
(link removed)

2. Typical modern MIA or MIM two pin tuner has 10mm tuner hole

Then it seems all MIM classic series, classic player, road worn - I assume the list extends to the current vintera line - have 9.09mm tuner hole

For example. The specs say 0.358” or 9.09 mm
https://shop.fender.com/en-US/parts...t-v-shape---maple-fingerboard/0991102921.html

The only vintage style tuners that would fit are the stock Pings:
(link removed)

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That means for my current classic series neck or any new replacement classic series/player neck I cannot use upgrades to Gotoh or Kluson? As there will be a whopping 0.29mm gap in the current hole?

Why is that?

Why are all those necks not either the "standard" 11/32" or 10mm?

Because Pings made the tuners larger? And Pings are the main source for all those classic series guitar?

I really love this series but the tuner hole size bothers me as hell.

Well I said it's yet another first world problem...

 

[boris bubbanov]

Great post!

Yeah, those bores are for the Inbetween Ping bushes.

Which paradoxically have a thinner tuner post than the usual Gotohs have.

But weirdly, maybe the Gotoh Split-style Lockers share these dimensions (or some) with the Pings.

And. Either the WD or the Wilkinson (one of those) shares dimensions with the Pings also. I've forgotten at the moment - maybe another TDPRI'er can confirm.

+

My solution was to use 10.0 conversion bushes and ream the bore out to around 10.0 mm so I could use all Gotoh parts.

 

[Dacious]

Pretty sure you can get either the vintage Gotih or the vintage Gotoh locking and they're a drop in to the stock bushing

http://www.tdpri.com/threads/tuner-replacement-ping-gotoh.98442/

Edit:scrub that - I see Boris popped up in that thread with more current advice than me. Looks like you need conversion bushings.

 

[omlove]

Pretty sure you can get either the vintage Gotih or the vintage Gotoh locking and they're a drop in to the stock bushing

http://www.tdpri.com/threads/tuner-replacement-ping-gotoh.98442/

Edit:scrub that - I see Boris popped up in that thread with more current advice than me. Looks like you need conversion bushings.

Thank you for your reply and link to previous discussions.

 

[omlove]

A little forensic work goes a long way.

It appears to me although the pings and gotoh have different ID and OD, the overall dimensions are the same:

(link removed)
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However, on all MIM vintage looking headstocks, the back casings of tuners are all slightly apart from each other. And not surprisingly, most are a little crooked.
While on all MIA vintage looking headstocks, the back of tuners are all butted together nicely and tightly. To me, this means the bushing holes are drilled wider apart from each other on MIM models, perhaps to allow more tolerance. But if everything is CNCed, this is beyond my understanding.

https://www.fmicassets.com/Damroot/ZoomJpg/10001/0149962303_gtr_hdstckbck_001_nr.jpg
https://www.fmicassets.com/Damroot/ZoomJpg/10001/0110112803_gtr_hdstckbck_001_nr.jpg

 

[Tuxedo Poly]

In Europe, the Gotoh SD91 retail packs now come with 2 sets of bushes, 8.8mm and 9.2mm together with an insertion/removal tool.
The 9.2mm bushes bored for 1/4" posts were also available from sellers on the US Ebay site last time I looked.

 

[logans_tele]

In Europe, the Gotoh SD91 retail packs now come with 2 sets of bushes, 8.8mm and 9.2mm together with an insertion/removal tool.
The 9.2mm bushes bored for 1/4" posts were also available from sellers on the US Ebay site last time I looked.

I'd love to hear of anyone actual experiences using the conversion bushings on a classic series/classic player/vintera neck. I've made the same observations as the OP regarding the "fit and finish" of the pings being sub-par to the "American Vintage" equivalents. I always see how they're slightly off, gaps, etc. in pictures and have really wondered why Fender can't get the dimensions the same. It would be a huge opportunity to sell some "upgraded" tuners to all the guys buying these classic series guitars and trying to get them a bit more in line with the American Vintage line.

 

[Tuxedo Poly]

My understanding of "conversion bushes" is they are 10mm or thereabouts and designed to fit headstocks which come with or are drilled for modern tuners.

The majority of headstocks on Mexican vintage style Fenders are drilled 9.09mm for Ping 9.2mm bushes and have been that way for 20 years or so.
Gotoh have probably now realised there is a gap in the market and are including 9.2mm bushes in their tuner sets.

If you check out the US Ebay sellers some are now stocking the Gotohs with both size bushes. I think some problems with supplies of Gotoh SD91s only coming with 8.8mm bushes is they are bulk supplied Allparts Tk 0880 not retail Gotoh packs



I have a maple Classic Player Strat neck from the Fender Replacement range with Gotoh SD91 tuners and Gotoh 9.2mm bushes. The tuners came in a box with 2 sets of bushes and the tool

 

[boris bubbanov]

My understanding of "conversion bushes" is they are 10mm or thereabouts and designed to fit headstocks which come with or are drilled for modern tuners.

The majority of headstocks on Mexican vintage style Fenders are drilled 9.09mm for Ping 9.2mm bushes and have been that way for 20 years or so.
Gotoh have probably now realised there is a gap in the market and are including 9.2mm bushes in their tuner sets.

If you check out the US Ebay sellers some are now stocking the Gotohs with both size bushes. I think some problems with supplies of Gotoh SD91s only coming with 8.8mm bushes is they are bulk supplied Allparts Tk 0880 not retail Gotoh packs



I have a maple Classic Player Strat neck from the Fender Replacement range with Gotoh SD91 tuners and Gotoh 9.2mm bushes. The tuners came in a box with 2 sets of bushes and the tool
View attachment 624474

This tool is very cool, and yet it makes me nervous. I can see someone using this tool to whack the bush into the maple, thus cracking it.

I like to use a thick, conventional guitar pick and the strength of my thumb, only. If that doesn't work the bore is still too small.

 

[omlove]

I'd love to hear of anyone actual experiences using the conversion bushings on a classic series/classic player/vintera neck. I've made the same observations as the OP regarding the "fit and finish" of the pings being sub-par to the "American Vintage" equivalents. I always see how they're slightly off, gaps, etc. in pictures and have really wondered why Fender can't get the dimensions the same. It would be a huge opportunity to sell some "upgraded" tuners to all the guys buying these classic series guitars and trying to get them a bit more in line with the American Vintage line.

Thanks for confirming what I thought. I think the real problem is distance between bores are wider than necessary, therefore tuners cannot be butted.

And thank you all for chiming in. Great (and most updated) information in all the posts.

 

[Dacious]

Thanks for confirming what I thought. I think the real problem is distance between bores are wider than necessary, therefore tuners cannot be butted.

And thank you all for chiming in. Great (and most updated) information in all the posts.

Not so much. I don't think that's a problem but the tuner bodies themselves are not the same. Some like the older unbranded ones presumably Pings on older Fenders are similar to Gotohs and only when you directly compare can you pick them.

Gotohs are Gotohs and are precisely made - they have a pressed cover on a stamped steel base - has tabs which pass through the chassis and are clinched with little tabs folded over - almost like the originals. The shaft gear and tuning key are in the base retained by the cover.

I've played 20 year old sets that still have acceptable play, shaft and/or bushing wear is most apparent. Older pings are like that too.

I've never seen one apart.

Some of the newer Kluson type tuners are a cast back with post staked or crushed like a rivet to hold the back on with the key and gear part of the back. Their dimensions seem to vary all over the place. Hence the need to align them. If you're drilling from scratch Gotohs can be misaligned too.

Someone had a picture of one from a while ago where the rear casing including shaft and gear, post had separated from the base and key which was still on the headstock. There's no real way to reattach them - the back is pot metal and the shaft can't be recrushed.

If it were me I'd go with the Gotohs. Fender branded sets seem to only come with the set of bushings they need.

 

[Tuxedo Poly]

Fender's description of their replacement bushes (0994946000) is strange, .345" (8.8mm) outside diameter and .240" (6.1mm) inside diameter. Too small for Mexican vintage headstocks and wrong post diameter for Gotoh. These are the ones listed on the American Original 50s and 60s service diagrams.
The Am Original series tuners look very much like the Fender Pure Vintage (0992074000) tuners with the Fender logo which are Gotoh with 1/4" (6.35mm) posts and are supplied with 9.2mm bushes.
https://shop.fender.com/en-US/gear/...yle-tuning-machine-bushings-6/0994946000.html

Fender are just as confused as the rest of us it seems.

 

[omlove]

Fender are just as confused as the rest of us it seems.

As the OP, I just get more and more entertained as I read more and more useful information. I guess the only way to get less confused is to buy them, use them and fix problem, if any, first hand.

 

[omlove]

I'd like to report my new findings:

Classic Player 50s Strat uses Gotoh locking tuners. I measured them - nothing beats firsthand confirmation IMO - the bushing has O.D. 8.8mm, I.D. 6mm, tuner shaft diameter 5.8mm. This corresponds to Fender tuner bushing sizes, as mentioned by @Tuxedo Poly.

https://shop.fender.com/en-US/gear/...yle-tuning-machine-bushings-6/0994946000.html

The tuner sizes and diagrams are listed on Stewmac:
(link removed)

Also found on Gotoh website (HAP or HAPM version, not Standard version):
(link removed)

So in conclusion, there 3 things to consider:
1. bore diameter, 10mm or 9.09mm or 8.8mm
2. bushing OD (10mm for conversion bushing, 9.1mm for Ping, 8.8mm for other "vintage")
3. bushing ID (6.4mm for standard or 6mm)
4. shaft diameter (6.35mm for standard or 5.8mm)

I am always annoyed by same thing with different "standards", like USB ports. And this new finding about tuners just annoyed so much I had to write it out. Only good news is now I know them all.

 

[omlove]

Also sadly not all U.S. made guitars have my ideally seated butted-against-each-other vintage tuners. Apparent the clapton strat shares this cheapish Ping looking with many MIMs:

image removed

 

[Tuxedo Poly]

What year is the Classic Player 50s with 8.8mm tuner bushes?
The current Fender spec is 9.09mm bore for 9.2mm bushes.
https://shop.fender.com/en-US/parts...t-v-shape---maple-fingerboard/0991102921.html

Those Clapton tuners are Gotoh.
Easy way to tell is the curve in the cover at the lubrication hole end. Pings are almost square.

 

[omlove]

What year is the Classic Player 50s with 8.8mm tuner bushes?

The Classic Player 50s in my hand was made in Oct 2018. I understand the replacement neck listed on Fender website says 9.09mm bole but perhaps that's to keep consistency with all other MIM vintage style replacement neck, not the production ones?

Thanks for the tip on Ping vs Gotoh. Yes, I can confirm the native Locking Tuner - not split shaft - that come with Classic Player 50s are Gotoh, judging by:

0. I read somewhere Ping does not make those locking type tuners
1. rounder curve of the back casing
2. all dimensions from my measurement check out with diagram on stewmac and gotoh.

These are Gotoh "SD91 HAPM" in their nomenclature and do have smaller shaft. Although to be more precise, stewmac's dimension of 5.79mm is more accurate than gotoh's 6mm. I know it's a small difference but from 6mm to 6.35mm is also a small difference and ignoring that, your replacement shaft may not fit the current bushing.

(link removed)

(link removed)

And the bole does measure 8.8mm on this guitar.

In conclusion, this is one particular sample of the model but with first hand experience and measurement. I think it's less confusing to me now after doing all the research about these Gotohs and Pings.