F Style Tuners Question

[billh]

I am building a solid rosewood Tele in the late 60's early 70's configuration. I purchased Fender F style tuners, pressed in the bushings and as I am attempting to install the machine heads I see the flanges do not have adequate clearance between them. They are stacking on top of each other. Just by a small amount but still not how they should fit. I have not been able to find any definitive info on hole spacing or size differences in these tuners. I suppose I could use an alternative style but prefer to go with the F style. Has anyone solved this issue in the past? I would love to hear any info and/or recommendations members have. Thanks

 

[fenderchamp]

ugh...I recall trying to put F tuners on a headstock once and they would not fit, they actually lapped over the end of the headstock, I don't believe it was my guitar and I think we ended up putting sealed tuners on it.

I just installed a set of F's on a musikraft neck yesterday, it was drilled for klusons and I had to ream out the holes a little (on both sides).

The F tuners were really tight and I had to kiss a couple of them, the last ones I put on, on a belt sander.

I chalked it up to when I reamed the holes a little bit bigger I wasn't perfectly accurate, e.g. I assumed that I must of egged the holes a tiny bit??

All in all F-tuners, possibly, are the most challenging tuners to install that I've encountered so far.

The holes on your headstock must be a tiny bit too close together or uneven.

Are the F-tuners overlapping on all of the holes or only some of them?

Unless there is some other black magic I don't know about you will have to either,

1. alter the tuners, and grind a little material off the top edges,
2. fill and redrill the peg holes on your headstock (that would ruin my day)
3. probably do 1 and try to really egg them out a bit try to scoot the low E a little closer to the Nut and the high E a little further from the nut etc (Imma'not saying do that, but I'd sure as chestnuts try it before I filled and redrilled).
4. use some other tuners.

Make sure that you have room on the headstock for the high E tuner before you do anything though.

good luck, and post pictures as a followup please.

 

[schmee]

Apparently the hole spacing was not done to normal spec? Did you do the holes?
I'm not aware that the spacing for those tuners is any different than others, but have only had one with those tuners over the years. You may have to go for different tuners.....
Maybe someone will chime in with more info....

 

[billh]

Apparently the hole spacing was not done to normal spec? Did you do the holes?
I'm not aware that the spacing for those tuners is any different than others, but have only had one with those tuners over the years. You may have to go for different tuners.....
Maybe someone will chime in with more info....

I did not do the hole drilling in the neck myself. It is a VERY old stock Fender rosewood neck that I purchased years ago. I have never seen what the spec is for hole spacing. I wish I knew what it was supposed to be. Actually as it happens I have a legit '69 Tele with all original hardware. I could pull those tuners and do a little reverse engineering on both the tuners and headstock. If I get so motivated I will share that info with the group for sure. Here is a photo of my original '69 showing how fitment is supposed to look.

 

[billh]

ugh...I recall trying to put F tuners on a headstock once and they would not fit, they actually lapped over the end of the headstock, I don't believe it was my guitar and I think we ended up putting sealed tuners on it.

I just installed a set of F's on a musikraft neck yesterday, it was drilled for klusons and I had to ream out the holes a little (on both sides).

The F tuners were really tight and I had to kiss a couple of them, the last ones I put on, on a belt sander.

I chalked it up to when I reamed the holes a little bit bigger I wasn't perfectly accurate, e.g. I assumed that I must of egged the holes a tiny bit??

All in all F-tuners, possibly, are the most challenging tuners to install that I've encountered so far.

The holes on your headstock must be a tiny bit too close together or uneven.

Are the F-tuners overlapping on all of the holes or only some of them?

Unless there is some other black magic I don't know about you will have to either,

1. alter the tuners, and grind a little material off the top edges,
2. fill and redrill the peg holes on your headstock (that would ruin my day)
3. probably do 1 and try to really egg them out a bit try to scoot the low E a little closer to the Nut and the high E a little further from the nut etc (Imma'not saying do that, but I'd sure as chestnuts try it before I filled and redrilled).
4. use some other tuners.

Make sure that you have room on the headstock for the high E tuner before you do anything though.

good luck, and post pictures as a followup please.

I think they are consistently spaced. I don't know what that spacing should actually be. I would love to see a Fender blueprint on that along with revision history. No way will I touch this neck. The old gentlemen I bought it from years ago had it in a safe, . I might consider modifying the tuners if I can't find some that fit. Although the ones I bought were Fender brand maybe someone has one on the market with a smaller housing profile? Most likely I will have to bite the bullet and go with a different style altogether. Thanks for your feedback. It's good to know that the problem I ran into is not unique. Normally when I run into fitment issues it is because of aftermarket parts, be it on one of my guitars or my old Corvette. In this case, everything is Fender.

 

[CWP0126]

Did that neck originally have F style tuners on it? I don’t see the screw holes for the D tuner. More pictures of the neck and the tuners would be helpful. Good luck!

 

[Alamo]

I have a set of Schaller F-tuners and the same problem you have. they overlap on a '68 Tele neck.

On another forum I read:

"there seemingly were two F tuner footprints, one in the 60's and one that ran for the 70's."

Vintage v Reissue F Tuners Question - OffsetGuitars.com

 

[plusorminuszero]

I just did a cursory center to center
measurement using calipers, +/- .010.

A '72 Fender Mustang with F tuners measures .970"
center to center.

A neck from '62 (Kluson single lines) shows .930".

So there's that. These numbers are extrapolated without taking down the tuners, from two slightly crude measurments.


If Alamo is right, however, citing differences between F tuner bodies and years issued, you would do well to
find the right tuners. I dabbled with F tuners briefly and
can say there are a couple different styles, but I never
measured the flange lengths. Fender headstocks did start getting goofier and goofier as the decade wore on, and it wouldn't surprise me if the center to center interval jumped once again (from .970" upward).

I'd go with Klusons if the centers accept them. There are some design issues which lend instability to F tuners, imo.

 

[billh]

I just did a cursory center to center
measurement using calipers, +/- .010.

A '72 Fender Mustang with F tuners measures .970"
center to center.

A neck from '62 (Kluson single lines) shows .930".

So there's that. These numbers are extrapolated without taking down the tuners, from two slightly crude measurments.


If Alamo is right, however, citing differences between F tuner bodies and years issued, you would do well to
find the right tuners. I dabbled with F tuners briefly and
can say there are a couple different styles, but I never
measured the flange lengths. Fender headstocks did start getting goofier and goofier as the decade wore on, and it wouldn't surprise me if the center to center interval jumped once again (from .970" upward).

I'd go with Klusons if the centers accept them. There are some design issues which lend instability to F tuners, imo.

W/o disassembly I took some rough dimensions of the original '69 I have. The tuners i.e. new ones compared to the ones on the '69 match very well. I can see no difference in them. The hole spacing, best I can tell, on the rosewood neck is about .940" vs the original '69 is about .970". So this neck (rosewood) will never accept the late '60's and up tuners I guess. Now, question is: Is a smaller footprint tuner available? If not then I have to go with a different type. [BTW I measured outside to outside of tuning pegs on the '69 then subtracted the diameter of one tuner peg which should get me pretty close to hole centers)

 

[billh]

I have a set of Schaller F-tuners and the same problem you have. they overlap on a '68 Tele neck.

On another forum I read:

"there seemingly were two F tuner footprints, one in the 60's and one that ran for the 70's."

Vintage v Reissue F Tuners Question - OffsetGuitars.com

That is great info. Now to find the smaller tuners. Unicorns, Holy Grail and down sized F tuners. Sounds like it could be a mini series.

 

[billh]

Did that neck originally have F style tuners on it? I don’t see the screw holes for the D tuner. More pictures of the neck and the tuners would be helpful. Good luck!

This is an old but virgin neck, was never installed nor never had tuners or anything used on it.

 

[plusorminuszero]

That is great info. Now to find the smaller tuners. Unicorns, Holy Grail and down sized F tuners. Sounds like it could be a mini series.

Yes...choose carefully. In the headstock bores ('72 Fender)
there was a counterbore for perhaps the later F tuners...
I found the holes needed that open area repacked in order to get the early F tuners to be stable at the shaft. After that
with a little fine honing, the long open shaft of these F tuners
do well enough. I briefly leased a couple 76 Fenders with
a different F style tuner. Maybe Schallers idk. Shiny, chrome, maybe some plastic. They have a two step shaft requiring a counterbore. The gears are hid inside a sealed case.
The early ones have a very open and accessible back. The gear is behind an easily removable 'case' that fits against the wood. These must have strong mounting screw crush.

The gear is simple to clean or to separate to straighten a bent key shaft, ie.,maintain. You can sometimes improve action by straightening any deformity in the case or cover.
But they must finally be screwed down snug and with post directly centered over a snug bore. The open back design appreciates this. These early F tuners lose stability with any mounting screw weakness. Keep any possible room for body twist or shaft deflection minimal by keeping a close tolerance on the bore. Try to make the bore a dimensional continuum of whatever the bushings measure, not more, and possibly less, so you cannot feel it with a pick or feeler.

As for the mounting screws, there's no room for errors. It will be visibly apparent with case flanges not lining up. And if the bore is snug (+.001-2) it would bind the post. Better to redowel and relocate than to overbore for post.

One '79 Fender had eyesore
misalignment of flanges, due to bad screw hole placement.
The F tuners worked fine, but it looked rough.
It is easy to make a mistake when putting down holes with this angled style. Take time, get them straight. You could always do a mock up and get a working jig which would be
bulletproof, provided you have a perpendicular set up.

 

[Velorex]

There are at least 3 styles, find old ones and they will fit. I found old thread https://www.tdpri.com/threads/f-tuners-with-metal-buttons.713178/
velorex

 

[billh]

There are at least 3 styles, find old ones and they will fit. I found old thread https://www.tdpri.com/threads/f-tuners-with-metal-buttons.713178/
velorex

Thats a great thread. Tons of info in there. Fender history is not for the squeamish, I guess. If you decide to go down a rabbit hole be prepared for a complicated journey. I would have assumed that mine being a solid rosewood neck it would by definition be the very late 60's thru 70's dimensioning scheme. However, I seem to have an anomaly. Thanks for the info.

 

[Shorty Medlock]

Mini tuners for some applications?

 

[old school fender]

I would suggest the F style tuners you have are for the large headstock version rather than the classic small headstock version. The hole spacing is definitely different between the two different styles. The small headstock version I have with classic klusons measures around .880 center to center, (as best as I can determine without removing them), whereas the large headstock with the F styles (71 reissue) measures about .930. These measurements aren't 100% precise but does indicate a substantial difference in the two.

 

[Matthias]

Is the neck an old Japanese one? The tuner holes are closer together on those and Japanese F tuners are very rare things. The old reissues used vintage-style tuners. The newer ones I see use F tuners but not sure if the spacing has now been changed to match the US necks.

 

[Boreas]

My $0.02 is that the cover plates likely have varied in dimension over the decades and reissues - either the plates themselves or where the holes are drilled. I built a new neck with the Fender models and managed to get them to fit by screwing them in and pushing them around. But not terribly happy with them as they are just as stiff as my 74 Tele. I just don't think they are a great tuner to begin with.

But I wouldn't be averse to grinding/filing/sanding enough of the edge(s) to get them to fit. Just be advised they plating will be lost and could corrode if you don't apply a clear-coat on the edge.

If you want to stay with the vibe and get a better quality tuner, you may want to look at some of the Kluson F-styles. The Revolution are nice tuners.

 

[derekwarner]

So the issue is the geometry and spacing of the turner holes drilled into the headstock in relation to the position of the strings superimposed over the nut

Each string should be a straight line from the bridge ......down to and over the nut, to the turner winding peg outside diameter [assuming one winding row only]

Over the years, string diameters have reduced rather dramatically, so using today's 0.009" to 0.042" set will produce a different angle between the nut to the post as to using 0.016" to 0.058" string set popular 40 years ago

We have seen examples presented here where some strings were splayed at an 'off angle' between the nut & the winding peg. This is clear confirmation that the arm was not an actual Fender product

This is not intended as a solution to the issue at hand, but to clarify that the 'f' stamped turners you have, would fit a correctly dimensioned headstock

Any of the processes sugested by Boreas & others will work, however considering the size & geometry of the tuner shells, suggest using a belt sander may offer greater control & hence greater uniforimity in the minimal amount of material removed

I suspect Fender would "Jig drilled" these 6 mounting holes, so this would have incorporated a built in tolerance [as a minimium] between each tuner peg hole

Derek