I am curious if anyone uses efficient 75W or more rated speakers in their Champ or Princeton amps? I am looking at all my options, maybe even a 6X9. I want clean volume more than anything. Any suggestions? A 10" won't fit. I am even considering a Fishman Loudbox replacement speaker 150W. What the heck would that do??!
Efficient speaker for a 5f2-A?
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Use any wattage you want. Tone changes with wattage usually, higher wattage bigger low end, but a low watt amp can drive most just fine.
If I wanted a loud robust 8" with big bottom end, I would find a Weber 8F150. They make them specifically for the Champ and at 4 ohms.
If I wanted a loud robust 8" with big bottom end, I would find a Weber 8F150. They make them specifically for the Champ and at 4 ohms.
What he said: wattage and efficiency aren’t the same thing.
Ok, no secrets here, I don't understand this stuff very well. So what does make an efficient speaker? I am really curious about some of these 6X9 car audio speakers as well, but finding one that may work seems very confusing. They have crazy wattage ranges up to 300W!
That speaker looks a lot like the Loudbox speaker
Fishman 340-000-019 8" Woofer For Loudbox 100, Artist, Performer
Buy the Fishman 340-000-019, 8" Woofer for Loudbox 100, Artist, Performer at Full Compass Systems. 0% Financing and Free Shipping on thousands of items!
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I'm no expert but I guess tight voice coil gaps make efficiency. Large magnets and voice coil diameters help restrain a speaker from breakup by controlling the cone wobble and are related to the efficiency. etc But I wouldn't go by wattage alone, especially with an unknown speaker (in the aftermarket sense) like the acoustic amp market.
Is yours a vintage Champ or...?
There are readily available output transformers for Champs which are rated at 10-12 watts. About double the average Champ OT. I have one in my Champ clone.
But if I wanted to get a louder bigger sounding Champ I would first try a Weber 8F150.
"For replacement of vintage Chicago Jensen P8R, P8Q, C8R, and other 8″ applications where a lot more low end and overall punch is desired.
8″, 30oz Ceramic magnet, 25 watts, 1-1/2″ voice coil, ribbed cone. Big, strong, well controlled low end. Detailed, later breakup. Very loud and aggressive with a lot of punch and dynamics for an 8″ speaker."
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PhredE
Friend of Leo's
An efficient speaker is one with a high(er) Sensitivity (aka Efficiency) rating. You'll see this parameter listed on a spec sheet in db. ' Low' is about 93 db and less, medium is about 94 to 98 db, and high is about 99db and above
As mentioned above, there is no direct dependency between efficiency and power rating. So, with a lesser powered amp you can functionally disregard power rating as a consideration and look more at efficiency rating. Look at a few spec sheets to get some examples of what is typical and how the info is presented.
Good luck.
As mentioned above, there is no direct dependency between efficiency and power rating. So, with a lesser powered amp you can functionally disregard power rating as a consideration and look more at efficiency rating. Look at a few spec sheets to get some examples of what is typical and how the info is presented.
Good luck.
Working backwards from the Loudbox claim of 113 dB at 1m with 120W we get an efficiency of 92 dB at 1W/1m. Which is on par if not a little lower than other manufacturers.
The given the same speaker cone greater efficiency can be had with a smaller voice coil gap and greater magnet which causes more magnetic flux in the gap. The greater dampening by a larger magnet is due to the greater EMF (voltage) generated in the voice coil that counteracts the current from the amplifier reducing the peak at the speaker resonance.
Keep in mind that a larger wattage OT will not give you more than your output tube can put out, the 6V6 being about 6W. There can be less losses in a larger OT than a smaller one resulting in an extra watt or two (depending). A 6x9 speakers with greater efficiency than of a 8" might not be in the cards as the 6x9 has roughly the same cone area of an 8". With full range 8" speakers you would get about 94-96 dB at most. Also it depends on how one manufacturer rates their speaker as compared to another.
96 dB and 95 dB
qcomponents.ca
99 dB although not full range, you would not want to use it. But it does show that you can get higher SPL numbers but it comes at a cost of low end, no free lunch.
qcomponents.ca
Money no object? An 8" that will take 200W and put out 117 dB at full output but for 1W it still has a rating of 94.5 dB.
qcomponents.ca
A 6 lb speaker, the 8/15, a 2.2 lb speaker.
The given the same speaker cone greater efficiency can be had with a smaller voice coil gap and greater magnet which causes more magnetic flux in the gap. The greater dampening by a larger magnet is due to the greater EMF (voltage) generated in the voice coil that counteracts the current from the amplifier reducing the peak at the speaker resonance.
Keep in mind that a larger wattage OT will not give you more than your output tube can put out, the 6V6 being about 6W. There can be less losses in a larger OT than a smaller one resulting in an extra watt or two (depending). A 6x9 speakers with greater efficiency than of a 8" might not be in the cards as the 6x9 has roughly the same cone area of an 8". With full range 8" speakers you would get about 94-96 dB at most. Also it depends on how one manufacturer rates their speaker as compared to another.
96 dB and 95 dB
Celestion Eight 15 4 ohm 8" 20W Guitar Speaker T5903
The Eight 15 is ideal for upgrading your bedroom blaster with authentic British tone. Well-balanced mids and highs complement a surprisingly meaty bottom end - it’s just about the biggest sounding eight inch speaker we’ve ever heard! The Eight 15 speaker is available in 4Ω making it ready...
99 dB although not full range, you would not want to use it. But it does show that you can get higher SPL numbers but it comes at a cost of low end, no free lunch.
Celestion TF0818MR 8 ohm 8" 100W Pro Audio Midrange T5278
Features Include 8" mid-range loudspeaker provides 99dB sensitivity and 100Wrms (AES standard) power handling 1.75" high temperature copper voice coil wound on polyimide former for increased reliability Designed for use in large 3-way systems Closed back chassis simplifies cabinet manufacture...
Money no object? An 8" that will take 200W and put out 117 dB at full output but for 1W it still has a rating of 94.5 dB.
Celestion NTR08-2009D 8 ohm 8" 200W Neodymium Pro Audio Woofer T5668
Features Include 8" neodymium magnet driver providing 200Wrms (AES standard) power handling and 94.5dB sensitivity 2" edgewound copper voice coil Suitable for line array applications, utilizing a space-efficient octagonal chassis profile Copper sleeved pole reduces inductive rise for improved HF...
A 6 lb speaker, the 8/15, a 2.2 lb speaker.
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It is a clone built with the helpful folks here on this forum. I did use an upgraded Classictone OT (RIP) capable of handling a 6L6. I still have JJ 6V6 in there... I am acquiring too many amps and trying to find the winners. I play steel guitar and guitar, mostly clean, so I want to see what this little guy is capable of. Thanks for the information, I think I am understanding better.
Fwiw, the Eminence 820H is a very good speaker for the BF/SF champs.
It is not a high efficiency speaker, but it is not a low efficiency speaker. either….a bit over 96db according to Eminence I like it in these Fender amps.
It is not a high efficiency speaker, but it is not a low efficiency speaker. either….a bit over 96db according to Eminence I like it in these Fender amps.
So you play pedal steel? OK, of course you want 'clean headroom.' I'm sure you know that a high efficiency speaker will make your clean tones louder, but it's worth saying explicitly: it won't make your loud tones cleaner. Meaning tones above a certain point on the volume dial are gonna be dirty -- the 5F1/2a circuits are famous for their OD tones probably more than for their cleans, and the onset of dirt is often as soon as halfway up the dial.
And you can't fit a 10"? And it has to be 4ohms? Your target space is shrinking fast. Still, from your post, I take it you actually like your amp for steel.
Don't overlook one other variable besides efficiency: the resistance to *speaker* breakup. That 8F150 @schmee mentions sounds beefy.
Someone smart will have to tell us if a 6L6 would give you more 'clean headroom.' And for steel cleans from a small tweed, is mic'ing the amp into a PA possible?
And you can't fit a 10"? And it has to be 4ohms? Your target space is shrinking fast. Still, from your post, I take it you actually like your amp for steel.
Don't overlook one other variable besides efficiency: the resistance to *speaker* breakup. That 8F150 @schmee mentions sounds beefy.
Someone smart will have to tell us if a 6L6 would give you more 'clean headroom.' And for steel cleans from a small tweed, is mic'ing the amp into a PA possible?
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I play lap and pedal steel, very recently started. I am still trying to figure out my gear. I am trying to design a small cabinet for the
5f2-A, it is currently without a cabinet. I have a 15" that is a bit large to move around a lot. I want a small cabinet with an 8" speaker to tote around easily.
PhredE
Friend of Leo's
I'm sure I've posted this before, but just as a reminder-- the production 8" nominal guitar speakers are a fairly limited set. There are a number of reasons for that, but just realize it's a pretty tricky proposition to find the 'ideal' 8" speaker (or even just a reasonably good match to what you're looking for). Inevitably, you'll have to settle for a unit that is the closest match (or, maybe 'least worst').
I don't want to thwart your progress here, but I would be remiss not to point out that some amp manufacturers (such as Quilter and Henriksen, as an example) use non-guitar type speakers (PA woofers/full range units is probably the best characterization) for use in some production combo amps.
One Quilter amp uses the Celestion TF0818. Most all Henriksen amps use the Emi Beta series speakers (the 6", 10" variants). The big difference in your case vs those I just mentioned is that the amps I mention are higher powered SS amps, in contrast to a low-powered tube amp. So, it's a different sound using a different approach, to be sure.
I don't want to thwart your progress here, but I would be remiss not to point out that some amp manufacturers (such as Quilter and Henriksen, as an example) use non-guitar type speakers (PA woofers/full range units is probably the best characterization) for use in some production combo amps.
One Quilter amp uses the Celestion TF0818. Most all Henriksen amps use the Emi Beta series speakers (the 6", 10" variants). The big difference in your case vs those I just mentioned is that the amps I mention are higher powered SS amps, in contrast to a low-powered tube amp. So, it's a different sound using a different approach, to be sure.
When speaker is in open back cabinet the size of cabinet effects how low frequencies attenuate and amplify. Naturally cabin can be small for small diameter speaker but then there come loss to low frequency volume and low frequency loudspeaker distortion increase when output volume pass the speaker "max linear displacement"
What if you get "mini PA" and use it when you need to be louder? So called "module D-class amp" are very cheap (100W ~$15...) for their low distortion output power. A laptor power supply can be used to power them and these could be cound free asking around if you have not kept them.
Solid state effect box size amps availability less than $100 should be very good.
Beautiful sounding very light and powerful Neodym speaker prices have increased when the world electrifying green accelerate but still has very good value for money when beautiful sound is needed. 10" Tornado 100 sound very good and it is very light.
Then if 5F2A speaker is "microphoned" comes the mic price and possible mic-pre amp price but there I have no knowledge.
Installing voltage divider resistor and potentiometer circuit to 5F2A loudspeaker output to get correct signal level for mini PA is easy. I don't know does it sound good but if it does then there is no need for microphone.
What if you get "mini PA" and use it when you need to be louder? So called "module D-class amp" are very cheap (100W ~$15...) for their low distortion output power. A laptor power supply can be used to power them and these could be cound free asking around if you have not kept them.
Solid state effect box size amps availability less than $100 should be very good.
Beautiful sounding very light and powerful Neodym speaker prices have increased when the world electrifying green accelerate but still has very good value for money when beautiful sound is needed. 10" Tornado 100 sound very good and it is very light.
Then if 5F2A speaker is "microphoned" comes the mic price and possible mic-pre amp price but there I have no knowledge.
Installing voltage divider resistor and potentiometer circuit to 5F2A loudspeaker output to get correct signal level for mini PA is easy. I don't know does it sound good but if it does then there is no need for microphone.
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I think if you're in the US you're lucky to have a good choice of 8 inch drivers; Jupiter 8 inch ceramic for $60 or so, weber CVA8 (which seems bargainous at $83 when it costs twice as much in Europe) plus the alnico or ceramic Signature, Jupiter 8 inch alnico, small magnet, for a little more $$$, plus of course the various Warehouse. Plenty of choice for you to pick out the more efficient ones.
Thanks for all the input. Using this amp for pedal steel would be far from ideal, but it is really great for guitar and lap steel. I also have a Quilter Superblock that I use in my other cabinets... Having so many speaker choices is a mixed blessing, there are so many options, its hard to decide! Oddly I am really interested in those audio 6x9s cause they would allow me to build a very short cabinet. I see the Weber and vintage 47 options, but I want ceramic. I also looked at the replacement speakers for the Fender Acoustrasonic, which is designed to be played with acoustic or electric instruments. The Celestian Eight 15 looks like a winner and cheap!
Looking at some of those tiny SS jazz amps (Little Jazz etc.) got me thinking about this. The whole high watt ss closed back ported cabinet thing has me confused, but somehow these keep up in a band setting and weigh very little! My amp will never do that I know, but Juliane Lage the popular jazz guitarist uses a Champ miced and sounds fantastic. My amp does have a very nice clean sound, I just want it a bit louder. Thanks again!
Looking at some of those tiny SS jazz amps (Little Jazz etc.) got me thinking about this. The whole high watt ss closed back ported cabinet thing has me confused, but somehow these keep up in a band setting and weigh very little! My amp will never do that I know, but Juliane Lage the popular jazz guitarist uses a Champ miced and sounds fantastic. My amp does have a very nice clean sound, I just want it a bit louder. Thanks again!
I should have also mentioned I am planning on using this as a head on my larger cabinet. I really love it through the 15"! I got the idea from the Nocturne "shine box". He uses a 6x9 in that one, but I figure an 8" would still be pretty manageable and seems easier to pick a winner. Still looking at the 6X9 option though, hmmm. The amp is in the wide chassis so the width of the cabinet will still be about 17".
I took a four foot, eight inch board (7.5" actual width) into a 12.5" x 11" x 7.5" cab. Shame the chassis was a little big, decided to squeeze the chassis I had into it, it was meant for a bigger cab but I have a bad habit of stuffing too much in a small space. Since I am at it, my go to grill cloth for smaller speakers is a $2 place mat from a Dollar store. Has a nice open weave. Used a regular stapler on this one (ran out of heavy duty staples making a 2x12 cabinet), just gave them a tap with a hammer. Anyway, an 8" speaker will be going in. No power transformer (going high tech with switching power supplies) and the output transformer will be mounted on the side. Leaning towards an EL84 amp. Cabinet handle as a handle.
Got tired of looking for the ideal small speaker and just bought one of these for $20.
https://www.bidspotter.com/en-us/au...0074/lot-33d57532-8c6e-499a-94d5-ad3d01807fb2
I realized I wanted a 6X9 and couldn't find many that are 8 ohms. This one has some mojo and is 8 ohms. My 5F2-a can run any speaker, but my Quilter Superblock only has full output with 8 ohms. I have no idea about the efficiency or the watts of this speaker??? It may not be good, but I figured for $20.....
https://www.bidspotter.com/en-us/au...0074/lot-33d57532-8c6e-499a-94d5-ad3d01807fb2
I realized I wanted a 6X9 and couldn't find many that are 8 ohms. This one has some mojo and is 8 ohms. My 5F2-a can run any speaker, but my Quilter Superblock only has full output with 8 ohms. I have no idea about the efficiency or the watts of this speaker??? It may not be good, but I figured for $20.....
I have three of those Jensen’s….I need to try them with an amp.
