Early morning musings on the state of modeling

[Boogieman92]

*** Warning: long rambling sleep deprived post***

I became interested in the digital realm of guitar a few years ago and have moved through a few units. Im currently mulling over buying a new one and these are my thoughts on the current options I am considering.

I originally started with a boss gt1 that I hated, sold it and bought a hotone ampero one. Loved the ampero, so I decided to try a hx stomp, also a great device. I eventually became frustrated with the constraints of the dsp limits on the stomp so I sold it with the intentions of buying an lt… 2 years or so later still no lt but have been using my ampero instead. Recently the constraints of that unit have made ponder an upgrade.

Line 6- I still like the idea of an lt but the age of the devices is starting to be a valid concern. L6 seems to have the strongest support and community in the market, but its still a digital device that will inevitably be replaced and I feel like whenever they release the next gen it will be a game changer. Still the ui is great as are the sounds.

Boss- The GX100 looks slick and the form factor is near perfect for my usage. I hated the gt1 but if the ui is improved the sounds seem to be very good and not likely to be superseded too soon. In theory i like that boss doesnt try to model specific amps as that can create a psychological issue for me, as im always worried about how close it sounds to the “real” amp. I like my pocket gt which seems to use a similar ui to the gx but still relies on the old cosm architecture, where as the gx has the newer “aird” modeling.

Headrush- the prime is intriguing, but the large format would be a hassle and the core modeling is based off some fairly ancient software. Support and community seem to be lacking, and after the initial launch the hype died off pretty quick it seems. On the plus side the hardware seems very powerful relative to the current crop. Still no external software for the phone or computer to control it, this is a major turn off for me.

Value brands- im including hotone, valeton, and nux here. Support is the major concern on these, but the value proposition is amazingly high. Nothing in the current ampero ecosystem is enticing to move up to. Nux mg30 might be cool but just feels like another stop gap product for my uses. Valeton gp200 is appealing but im worried what dsp limitations would be presented by any of these options.

For reference I use modelers for the versatility to go from jazz to metal and all points in between. I also love the lower volume requirements having a family this is important. I dont gig so the massive floorboards dont offer me much as a 3-4 button unit does everything i need. I typically leave my unit on my desk and use my laptop to do most or all of the controls. So space is at a premium for me. I have thought about going the plug in route, but i just prefer the flexibility of having a piece if hardware to handle all of this for me.

 

[northernguitar]

The Boss GX100 looks dope. I have the IR-200 and the Boss amps sound fantastic. I haven't played on the amps of the sims I use most (VOX AC30, Marshall Super Lead, Fender Bassman and Twin Reverb), so I don't worry about comparisons. I DO compare the sound quality of the sims to my previous setup (tube heads into loadbox into Mooer Radar) and the Boss delivers.

If you do try the GX100, my bet is the presets are awful! They are on the IR-200. However, with some easy tweaking, I am getting the sound I want.

 

[Boogieman92]

The Boss GX100 looks dope. I have the IR-200 and the Boss amps sound fantastic. I haven't played on the sims I use most (VOX AC30, Marshall Super Lead, Fender Bassman and Twin Reverb), so I don't worry about comparisons. I DO compare the sound quality of the sims to my previous setup (tube heads into loadbox into Mooer Radar) and the Boss delivers.

If you do try the GX100, my bet is the presets are awful! They are on the IR-200. However, with some easy tweaking, I am getting the sound I want.

You know its funny every modeler comes out and gets knocked for having way overblown presets, and the next one out does the exact same thing lol.

 

[aging_rocker]

You know its funny every modeler comes out and gets knocked for having way overblown presets, and the next one out does the exact same thing lol.

Yep.

Most pre-sets seem to be made to appeal to young folks (with pointy guitars??) which will sound good in a noisy warehouse-style store. Well, that's what a lot of them sound like to me anyway. I guess that's what sells them?

 

[jaxjaxon]

Well the best modeling digital amp I have ever owned was a Fender G Dec 3 thirty and the Fuse soft ware. It had 99 presets that most I changed with the fuse software you could have 40 different amp types but I only used 8. All the bells and whistles from different compression settings to all types of reverb. pre amp pedals and post amp pedals basically a built in FX loop. I also had two other fender amps I would use with the 3 thirty and a **** load of pedals of all types and variety's. And then I got a Old rack unit that would doa Leslie thing so it had left and right outs and a center out. But when I played out I would just take the 3 thirty and have it set up to do any sound I wanted along with its foot switch to change the preset selections.

 

[GRAVITY-LHP]

After massive youtube trolling and all... (contenders were, Fractal, Kemper, Quad Cortex and Tonex)

I'm all in on the Tonex (I use amplitude now, and headrush w FRFR). The Tonex looks so impressive from afar, and the comparisons to the real thing and Kemper seem outstanding.

The price point, leaves me no choice but to consume (sink or swim).

I'll use my Headrush as a companion (for now). Then build from there. My expectation is... I ain't looking' back. For studio and recording and Amplitube integration, a no brainer, and I think I can build a simple, kick-a$$, 3 to 4 pedal rig with the Tonex pedal as the amp(s)... for world class tone.

Tonex.

 

[teletail]

Yep.

Most pre-sets seem to be made to appeal to young folks (with pointy guitars??) which will sound good in a noisy warehouse-style store. Well, that's what a lot of them sound like to me anyway. I guess that's what sells them?

Exactly. Reminds me of Harley Davidson seats. You sit on them in the showroom and they’re nice and soft and comfortable. Go on a really long ride and the lack of support will make you buttocks hurt like hell. On the other hand, sit on a really firm seat in the show room and it won’t seem as comfortable. After 10 hours though, your buttocks are still happy.

 

[codamedia]

Line 6- I still like the idea of an lt but the age of the devices is starting to be a valid concern. L6 seems to have the strongest support and community in the market, but its still a digital device that will inevitably be replaced and I feel like whenever they release the next gen it will be a game changer. Still the ui is great as are the sounds.

Yes, at some point Line 6 will come out with a new unit. My hunch is that it will be a new piece of hardware with a healthy DSP update, touchscreen, maybe sized between the LT and Stomp XL ala Quad Cortex. BUT - I also think it will just be another option to the HX/Helix platform... not a replacement of it.

I don't expect my Helix LT or my HX Stomp to become obsolete when a new Line 6 product surfaces... they will still sound great, the UI will still be easy to navigate and both will continue to do the job I bought them to do.

 

[howardlo]

I have had the Fender GTX50 for a few years now. Love having very good (IMHO) models of so many vintage Fender (and other) amps is great, as is having so many available effects. The software is great and very easy to use on my phone. I like the convenience of that instead of having to go to the amp to change settings. The foot switch is also very handy especially for being able to use it to turn effects on and off.

As with most of the modeling amps I found the built in presets to be of little use to me, especially since I only play clean 99% of the time and only rarely with just a bit of crunch. Since I only play (and record) at home these days it is really all the amp I need.

 

[Blrfl]

LONG POST ALERT! PLEASE FASTEN YOUR SEAT BELTS!

... boss gt1 ... hotone ampero one ... hx stomp ... frustrated with the constraints of the dsp limits ... using my ampero instead. Recently the constraints of that unit have made ponder an upgrade.

You and I have been on a similar journey with almost the same gear. I have the full-size Ampero (same software as the One, just more switchgear), a Mustang Micro, a Pocket GT (exactly the same software as the GT-1, by the way) and a Helix that arrived at my door a week ago after a lot of survey and deliberation. For many years before the Ampero, I used an Alesis Quadraverb2 for most of my effects.

Line 6- I still like the idea of an lt but the age of the devices is starting to be a valid concern. ... but its still a digital device that will inevitably be replaced and I feel like whenever they release the next gen it will be a game changer. Still the ui is great as are the sounds.

There are two things to know about where we are right now:

One is that we've been through a 40-year-long ramp-up where digital effects processors went from expensive and relatively-incapable (Yamaha SPX-90, introduced 1985, $2,600 in today's dollars) to inexpensive and very-capable (Hotone Ampero, 2019, $400). Because the DSP on tap wasn't very powerful and improving existing things or doing new ones needed more, that meant a hardware upgrade. That's left everyone with an "it's digital, it will be replaced soon" taste in their mouths. I get that. We've reached a plateau where the amount of processor available is adequate for a lot of tasks. This is part of the reason that PCs and mobile phone sales are sinking: what we've got will hold us for awhile. It's also why neither the Helix nor the Kemper Profiler have seen an upgrade: there's enough processor headroom for more things.

The other is that all of the magic in these things, be it the Mustang Micro or Helix, is in software. Aside from having an impressive array of inputs and outputs, the hardware architecture of the Helix is pretty pedestrian and very similar to pretty much every other product like it: A-to-D, DSP(s), D-to-A and a general-purpose processor to oversee it all. The DSPs cost under $25 each in the kind of quantities Line 6 would be buying, so it's not like we're talking Ferrari parts. Most of the bulk of the physical box is switchgear, displays and external connectors. The card that does the actual work isn't much bigger than a mobile phone (image from Tony Mackenzie's teardown video; annotations are mine):

There's no reason Line 6 couldn't keep everything but the processor card, replace that with something more powerful and put new silkscreening on the back. But I think @codamedia has it right: an eventual Helix II will be able to run more blocks and the existing products will continue to be supported as a less-capable version as the HX Stomp is now.

Because the platform already has a decent amount of processing power, Line 6 can already do big things in software upgrades. 3.0 was considered a game-changer because it introduced polyphonic effects (Poly Sustain, Poly Pitch, Poly Wham, Poly Detune and Poly Capo and 12-string), never mind that each one chews up an eye-watering 50% of the DSP give or take a few percent. If you don't use them, you can still do quite a bit because the bulk of the non-amp blocks use less than 6% each. (Numbers are based on Ben Vesco's estimates of DSP consumption.)

3.5 introduced optimizations that took the cabinet and IR blocks from using 9% of the DSP each down to 3%. This is significant because switching a cabinet block to the new version in an otherwise-full preset gives you back processor time to add another block that uses less than 6%. These are not the kinds of changes that precede a switch to more-powerful hardware if you plan to entice your existing customers to upgrade. They are the kind of changes that the high price of entry funded and is why they're provided at no charge and show intent to extend the life of the existing product. Anyone who's had a Helix since they were introduced gets all the features of a brand-new one and has paid all of about $200 a year for it, which isn't a bad deal in my book.

Anyway, don't hold your breath for a new Helix anytime soon unless asphyxia is your thing. I've heard I've heard third hand that Line 6 swears up and down they have no intention of replacing the Helix hardware platform anytime soon. Not that they'd say anything if they did...

Value brands- im including hotone, valeton, and nux here. Support is the major concern on these, but the value proposition is amazingly high. Nothing in the current ampero ecosystem is enticing to move up to.

Hotone has mentioned that they intend to release three new products this year; one of them could be a high-capacity, Helix-style box.

My Ampero has been great and some of the amp models give the Helix a good run for its money. I looked seriously at the Ampero Stomp II, but it got dinged hard because firmware updates for their entire product line have slowed to a trickle. The 4.0 release was a step back and I told myself that if they didn't release a 4.1 by the spring, I was going to pull the rip cord and step into the kilobuck-plus tier. I did that and, if the Ampero stays around, I'll probably downgrade it to 3.8, which sounded better.

 

[Boogieman92]

After massive youtube trolling and all... (contenders were, Fractal, Kemper, Quad Cortex and Tonex)

I'm all in on the Tonex (I use amplitude now, and headrush w FRFR). The Tonex looks so impressive from afar, and the comparisons to the real thing and Kemper seem outstanding.

The price point, leaves me no choice but to consume (sink or swim).

I'll use my Headrush as a companion (for now). Then build from there. My expectation is... I ain't looking' back. For studio and recording and Amplitube integration, a no brainer, and I think I can build a simple, kick-a$$, 3 to 4 pedal rig with the Tonex pedal as the amp(s)... for world class tone.

Tonex.

The tone x is an interesting value proposition in the world of modeling, but for whatever reason just doesnt excite me. I really love having 1 box to do everything and the idea of having to run a board for the handful of effects i want just doesnt seem fun.

Yes, at some point Line 6 will come out with a new unit. My hunch is that it will be a new piece of hardware with a healthy DSP update, touchscreen, maybe sized between the LT and Stomp XL ala Quad Cortex. BUT - I also think it will just be another option to the HX/Helix platform... not a replacement of it.

I don't expect my Helix LT or my HX Stomp to become obsolete when a new Line 6 product surfaces... they will still sound great, the UI will still be easy to navigate and both will continue to do the job I bought them to do.

Obsolescence isnt so much the issue as I know the helix stuff will sound just as good when the next iteration comes, its more that gut feeling that id be the guy to lay out all the money the day before the new one hits the market. Also fomo plays in as id hate to be stuck with the old tech after just spending that much money and have to watch all the cool kids play with the new toy.

LONG POST ALERT! PLEASE FASTEN YOUR SEAT BELTS!



You and I have been on a similar journey with almost the same gear. I have the full-size Ampero (same software as the One, just more switchgear), a Mustang Micro, a Pocket GT (exactly the same software as the GT-1, by the way) and a Helix that arrived at my door a week ago after a lot of survey and deliberation. For many years before the Ampero, I used an Alesis Quadraverb2 for most of my effects.



There are two things to know about where we are right now:

One is that we've been through a 40-year-long ramp-up where digital effects processors went from expensive and relatively-incapable (Yamaha SPX-90, introduced 1985, $2,600 in today's dollars) to inexpensive and very-capable (Hotone Ampero, 2019, $400). Because the DSP on tap wasn't very powerful and improving existing things or doing new ones needed more, that meant a hardware upgrade. That's left everyone with an "it's digital, it will be replaced soon" taste in their mouths. I get that. We've reached a plateau where the amount of processor available is adequate for a lot of tasks. This is part of the reason that PCs and mobile phone sales are sinking: what we've got will hold us for awhile. It's also why neither the Helix nor the Kemper Profiler have seen an upgrade: there's enough processor headroom for more things.

The other is that all of the magic in these things, be it the Mustang Micro or Helix, is in software. Aside from having an impressive array of inputs and outputs, the hardware architecture of the Helix is pretty pedestrian and very similar to pretty much every other product like it: A-to-D, DSP(s), D-to-A and a general-purpose processor to oversee it all. The DSPs cost under $25 each in the kind of quantities Line 6 would be buying, so it's not like we're talking Ferrari parts. Most of the bulk of the physical box is switchgear, displays and external connectors. The card that does the actual work isn't much bigger than a mobile phone (image from Tony Mackenzie's teardown video; annotations are mine):

View attachment 1110960

There's no reason Line 6 couldn't keep everything but the processor card, replace that with something more powerful and put new silkscreening on the back. But I think @codamedia has it right: an eventual Helix II will be able to run more blocks and the existing products will continue to be supported as a less-capable version as the HX Stomp is now.

Because the platform already has a decent amount of processing power, Line 6 can already do big things in software upgrades. 3.0 was considered a game-changer because it introduced polyphonic effects (Poly Sustain, Poly Pitch, Poly Wham, Poly Detune and Poly Capo and 12-string), never mind that each one chews up an eye-watering 50% of the DSP give or take a few percent. If you don't use them, you can still do quite a bit because the bulk of the non-amp blocks use less than 6% each. (Numbers are based on Ben Vesco's estimates of DSP consumption.)

3.5 introduced optimizations that took the cabinet and IR blocks from using 9% of the DSP each down to 3%. This is significant because switching a cabinet block to the new version in an otherwise-full preset gives you back processor time to add another block that uses less than 6%. These are not the kinds of changes that precede a switch to more-powerful hardware if you plan to entice your existing customers to upgrade. They are the kind of changes that the high price of entry funded and is why they're provided at no charge and show intent to extend the life of the existing product. Anyone who's had a Helix since they were introduced gets all the features of a brand-new one and has paid all of about $200 a year for it, which isn't a bad deal in my book.

Anyway, don't hold your breath for a new Helix anytime soon unless asphyxia is your thing. I've heard I've heard third hand that Line 6 swears up and down they have no intention of replacing the Helix hardware platform anytime soon. Not that they'd say anything if they did...



Hotone has mentioned that they intend to release three new products this year; one of them could be a high-capacity, Helix-style box.

My Ampero has been great and some of the amp models give the Helix a good run for its money. I looked seriously at the Ampero Stomp II, but it got dinged hard because firmware updates for their entire product line have slowed to a trickle. The 4.0 release was a step back and I told myself that if they didn't release a 4.1 by the spring, I was going to pull the rip cord and step into the kilobuck-plus tier. I did that and, if the Ampero stays around, I'll probably downgrade it to 3.8, which sounded better.

A few thoughts on your post
- 1. Its funny I actually own a pocket gt and really dont mind it. It has its limitations but I vastly prefer it to the gt1 for whatever reason even though i know its the same software. The bt editing is handy and not having to deal with the terrible ui on the gt1 is a huge plus. Makes me wonder why more of the top end modelers wont integrate bt editing.

-2. I was very excited when the ampero ii was announced but nothing since has made me get the itch to buy it. I would love to see hotone go for broke on something as i really enjoy the ampero one even with its limitations.

-3. I would love to see a stomp or stomp xl sized helix with the full firepower as that is a perfect form factor for me. Part of my hesitation on the lt or the floor is the size issue. And i have to give L6 their due they have faithfully supported the products better than just about anyone else in the game but at some point they will move on even if its another 10 years down the road.


On a side note while the amp type modelers are very handy thats not something that works for me. I like running through headphones or monitors as i have much better control of the volume. I still have my “real” amps when the itch hits me to plug into an actual amp. That said i hate that fender killed the old fuse software and made the original mustangs basically useless as i did love those back when

 

[hawk45]

Since I don't play out and have a need to do sets of songs, I've moved from using tube amps to modelers, and now from modelers just using my PC with plugins through some good monitors. I've mostly been using the Neural standalone plugins and saving off several presets for songs/bands/genres I play. The standalones are great b/c I don't have to open a DAW and drop them in a track like most plugins, so one less step and program to have open. No need for a floorboard but have hooked up my Behringer FCB1010 to control the plugins via midi if want that functionality. I use my guitar volume knob to control gain mostly and rarely feel the need to toggle effects so doesn't get used much. Trying to keep life quick and simple anymore. The JP plugin gets the most use as I love the transpose feature where you can drop by semi-tones, which means I only need a standard and drop-d guitar around to play just about any tuning. Do have a L6 HX Stomp XL and a few of the smaller modeling amps (Katana MKII 100, L6 Catalyst 60) and a few tube heads/4x12/1x12 cabs, but the plugins get the most use as I work from the same desk. Easy to click the plugin and grab the guitar and be playing in seconds from the same seated position.

 

[Peegoo]

When I play with others, I use an amp. Most often it's a non-modeling analog transistor amp (Quilter). When I record, it's usually a modeler.

Why? because even 10-year-old modeling tech sounds like an amp in a recording. It's virtually impossible to tell, as a listener, what the guitarist used on any recording. It's been that way for more than 10 years now.

As always, use your own ears and pay no attention to anyone else's opinion, including mine. Use what works for you.

 

[klasaine]

+1000 to what Peegoo says.
If I don't take notes on what I've used on a recording, I can't tell if I mic'd an amp, used a modeler, an IR or a combination of different tech.
It's all scary good these days.

 

[Alex_C]

I've owned a Headrush full board, an Amplifrebox, a Helix LT and now the Hotone Ampero II Stomp (caling it the A2S). I love the Hotone A2S. The small form factor, excellent I/O, fast and intuitive touch screen, nice PC interface and excellent sound make it a keeper. I'm into analog amps again (I go back and forth), so the A2S is curently used for effects, mainly delay and modulation. It has much more processing power than the original Ampero. For me, the A2S beat out the HX Stomp when I was shopping. The HX Stomp is great and the community is stellar but the A2S felt better under the fingers and was much easier to use. The touchscreen is killer.

 

[BluesMann]

Just played Saturday outdoors on a concrete pool deck. I used two amps. My 68 Custom CVR blended together with my nearly 20year old Vox AD120VTX modeler. I send the line out from the Vox to the board for going out to the audience and the monitors. But I blend the 68CVR in so I can hear what I am playing better. At home I’m playing both. Have yet to try recording so the jury is out on that so far.

 

[swervinbob]

+1000 to what Peegoo says.
If I don't take notes on what I've used on a recording, I can't tell if I mic'd an amp, used a modeler, an IR or a combination of different tech.
It's all scary good these days.

It’s funny, I was watching the Andertons video comparing all of the amp capture/profiling products vs a real amp. At the very end of the video, Danish Pete said the night before he did a session for Britain’s Got Talent and just used UAD plugins because he wanted to just plug straight into his interface.

 

[burntfrijoles]

It's virtually impossible to tell, as a listener, what the guitarist used on any recording.

If I don't take notes on what I've used on a recording, I can't tell if I mic'd an amp, used a modeler, an IR or a combination of different tech.

In a mix, live or recording, no one is going to hear a difference.

My gripe with modeling is that much of it tries to do too much. "Xxxxxx has 84 amps models and 250 effects." Say what? If you can't hear the difference in a mix how the hell are you going to hear a difference between a Marshall style Friedman and a Marshall?
I personally like Fender's approach of modeling a single amp or the Iridium giving you a Blackface, Marshall, Vox. If you want to go crazy, have a modeler that does Blackface, Tweed, Marshall Plexi, JCM, Vox, HiWatt, Boogie. Also, I don't want no stinking menus. That's plenty and probably overkill. If someone produced such an amp, I'd likely buy it in a heartbeat.
Right now I'm happy with my SE PRRI with 12" speaker. However I'm pretty sure I'll switch to a Tone Master DR or something similar in the next couple of years. (Actually I'll probably keep the PRRI too) I already use my Iridium for recording or even the stock amps in Logic, which actually aren't bad at all.

 

[Blrfl]

My gripe with modeling is that much of it tries to do too much. "Xxxxxx has 84 amps models and 250 effects." Say what?

And yet, guitar stores and having 84 amps and 250 effects on the shelves would be considered adequately-stocked. Why do they need all that stuff? Couldn't they just sell two amps and a dozen effects? (Not looking for an answer; read on.)

If you can't hear the difference in a mix how the hell are you going to hear a difference between a Marshall style Friedman and a Marshall?
I personally like Fender's approach of modeling a single amp or the Iridium giving you a Blackface, Marshall, Vox. If you want to go crazy, have a modeler that does Blackface, Tweed, Marshall Plexi, JCM, Vox, HiWatt, Boogie. Also, I don't want no stinking menus. That's plenty and probably overkill. If someone produced such an amp, I'd likely buy it in a heartbeat.

I'll produce that amp for you. Are you prepared to pay what the Blrfltone Custom Only-What-Burntfrijoles-Wants Digital Special will cost?

I've said this in other threads, but it bears repeating: Modelers get lots of amps and effects stuffed into them because the others are dirt cheap to add once there's enough in place to run the first one. The presence of the additional models does absolutely nothing to make anything else in the box less-capable. It's not the analog world where doing more things means adding more parts. If somebody like Friedmans and the presence of one makes the difference between buy vs. pass for enough people, the investment in adding it will have paid off. Not having to maintain a separate SKU for the rock, blues, metal, country, worship and ska versions of the product makes it less-expensive for everyone involved.

This isn't directed at you personally, but I don't buy the option paralysis argument from anyone capable of walking into a well-stocked guitar store without becoming catatonic.

 

[tfarny]

Yes, at some point Line 6 will come out with a new unit. My hunch is that it will be a new piece of hardware with a healthy DSP update, touchscreen, maybe sized between the LT and Stomp XL ala Quad Cortex. BUT - I also think it will just be another option to the HX/Helix platform... not a replacement of it.

I don't expect my Helix LT or my HX Stomp to become obsolete when a new Line 6 product surfaces... they will still sound great, the UI will still be easy to navigate and both will continue to do the job I bought them to do.

Yes, I too think the Helix software is now a platform like Windows that will live on through hardware changes. In fact if a new Helix product were not backward compatible I would be very reluctant to buy it. So I don't think any Line 6 stuff will be "instantly obsolete" any more than a new laptop makes your old laptop "obsolete".

And I'd love to see a Pod Go-sized device, with a touchscreen, that has all the full Helix capability.