Duncan Antiquities vs Gibson 57 Humbuckers in a Semi Guitar

[Antigua Tele]

What you beieve is wrong. They couldn't be more different, different type of wire, different TPL, different wire turns, they're wound in two completely different winding machines,The APH is vacuum wax-potted, the Seth is not... even the freaking bobbins are different!

Some of those specs, like TPL, you don't know, while even some the things you might know, like what kind of plastic the bobbin in made of, doesn't effect the sound.

You come from the school of thought that every little difference must cause an enormous shift in a pickup's transfer characteristics. I get that, but I'm not going to entertain it.

Similar to what exactly? There's more wire in the Ants than either the Seths or the APHs.

This is how similar they are:

Seth Lovers
Bridge: R: 8.00k ohms L: 4.835H
Neck: R: 7.39k ohms L: 4.158H

Antiquities
Bridge: R: 8.48k ohms L: 5.185H
Neck: R: 7.65k ohms L: 4.253H

 

[Antigua Tele]

They call it a nickel cover.

I'd tested the cover, regardless of what they call it the damping was consistent with nickel silver covers. I believe the brush nickel cover is slightly worse than average, due to being slightly thicker than typical nickel silver covers.



57 Classic with and without cover:

Seth Lover with and without cover; the loaded resonances are very similar to the 57 Classic

Meanwhile, this is what a brass cover does, you can see that the damping is more dramatic.

 

[TRexF16]

I have not used the Antiquties but I put a second-hand set of 57 classics in my Epi Dot and to me they sound fantastic. I did build a new harness for it with all new top quality parts - I got the Dot as a completely empty brand new body/neck for $50 from a guy on Craigslist so I had to add all the components from scratch anyway and figured to use nice stuff. My 57 classics were wound in 2012 and are not two of the same pickup, as suggested earlier, but somewhat balanced, with the bridge reading 8.7K and the neck 7.8K. They are also the only set of these I have used on any guitar so I have no sample size, just this one success story. I only have $270 invested in the whole guitar and feel it's quite the equal of a 335, at least in sound, though the fit and finish is lovely too.

Good luck with whichever you choose or the "cocktail" approach if you go that route.

Rex

 

[homesick345]

I have not used the Antiquties but I put a second-hand set of 57 classics in my Epi Dot and to me they sound fantastic. I did build a new harness for it with all new top quality parts - I got the Dot as a completely empty brand new body/neck for $50 from a guy on Craigslist so I had to add all the components from scratch anyway and figured to use nice stuff. My 57 classics were wound in 2012 and are not two of the same pickup, as suggested earlier, but somewhat balanced, with the bridge reading 8.7K and the neck 7.8K. They are also the only set of these I have used on any guitar so I have no sample size, just this one success story. I only have $270 invested in the whole guitar and feel it's quite the equal of a 335, at least in sound, though the fit and finish is lovely too.
View attachment 451835
Good luck with whichever you choose or the "cocktail" approach if you go that route.

Rex

I am sure tempted by the cocktail Ant in the neck & 57 in the bridge - but I don't want to screw my friend really who gave me an exceptional price on any set I choose. (I'm not sure he's accept)

I'm leaning a bit towards the Duncan Ant. set; just because it's different & many guitars around here have the 57s - which I do reckon sound damn' nice.

This same friend has a 69 355 TDSV & the neck pickup weakness is a thing of beauty. I think the Duncan degaussed is more in this territory

We'll see.

 

[telemnemonics]

Might be worth getting the resistance numbers from the two sets.
Is the 57 set a Classic and a Classic +?
Those would be more of a calibrated set, with the + supposedly being wound a little hotter, though I bought a used set and both the classic and classic + oddly measure right about 8.0k ohms.
Unless you have a more solid reason to choose one over the other, I'd use those specs to make the choice and see how it turns out.
I combined a 57 Classic + bridge with a Burstbucker neck for the theoretical added treble and "complexity" of the asymmetric coils on the BB in the neck position.
Likewise I'd want weaker coils at the neck, and if the 57 Classic set are both the same wind, that would make them less attractive.

Re: the sound I hear, I don't have a refined ear for HBs or enough of them to comment beyond some theory.

And yeah, the 57 Classic has solid nickel silver covers with no brass underneath if you file the corner, particularly pretty ones too. Like jewelry.

I'd add that if i'd heard and loved the 57 set, that would be a huge reason to choose them over a different set that piqued my curiosity.
I just want my dang guitar to have sounds I love!

 

[moosie]

I've not played the Antiquities in a semi. But the 57s in my 335 are to die for. Very underrated pickups.

I know it may not help you choose, but I'd have full confidence installing 57s in a 335.

 

[Antigua Tele]

The thing is, when you're comparing pickups that are very similar in electrical and physical terms, you can't say "this pickup is way brighter than that one", because it's just not true. So what you get instead are more like people's feelings and impressions, and so this is a situation where "one man's trash is another man's treasure" couldn't be more true.

 

[homesick345]

Might be worth getting the resistance numbers from the two sets.
Is the 57 set a Classic and a Classic +?
Those would be more of a calibrated set, with the + supposedly being wound a little hotter, though I bought a used set and both the classic and classic + oddly measure right about 8.0k ohms.
Unless you have a more solid reason to choose one over the other, I'd use those specs to make the choice and see how it turns out.
I combined a 57 Classic + bridge with a Burstbucker neck for the theoretical added treble and "complexity" of the asymmetric coils on the BB in the neck position.
Likewise I'd want weaker coils at the neck, and if the 57 Classic set are both the same wind, that would make them less attractive.

Re: the sound I hear, I don't have a refined ear for HBs or enough of them to comment beyond some theory.

And yeah, the 57 Classic has solid nickel silver covers with no brass underneath if you file the corner, particularly pretty ones too. Like jewelry.

I'd add that if i'd heard and loved the 57 set, that would be a huge reason to choose them over a different set that piqued my curiosity.
I just want my dang guitar to have sounds I love!

Yes the 57 are the "safe" choice since I tried them in many friends' guitars - & there's absolutely nothing to be left desired

THe 57 set is zebra coil with no covers. The Ants have nickel aged covers

I'm sure it's my vanity & wanting to be different; but what I'm dreaming of is that 69 355 I tried; where the neck pickup almost sounds like a Strat, really. Bright, weak, refined. Gone is the "boom" & mud I have encountered in all HB I've tried in the neck position, where you have to take the bass on the amp two good notches down..

I read in this thread about the "degaussed" antiquity maybe it will get me near that sound?

 

[homesick345]

The thing is, when you're comparing pickups that are very similar in electrical and physical terms, you can't say "this pickup is way brighter than that one", because it's just not true. So what you get instead are more like people's feelings and impressions, and so this is a situation where "one man's trash is another man's treasure" couldn't be more true.

THe only "vintage" gibson I played is that 69 355TDSV - the neck position is really different from all HB I tried. It's quieter, brighter or clearer & not as loud as your typical modern HB

 

[telemnemonics]

Yes the 57 are the "safe" choice since I tried them in many friends' guitars - & there's absolutely nothing to be left desired

THe 57 set is zebra coil with no covers. The Ants have nickel aged covers

I'm sure it's my vanity & wanting to be different; but what I'm dreaming of is that 69 355 I tried; where the neck pickup almost sounds like a Strat, really. Bright, weak, refined. Gone is the "boom" & mud I have encountered in all HB I've tried in the neck position, where you have to take the bass on the amp two good notches down..

I read in this thread about the "degaussed" antiquity maybe it will get me near that sound?

Tough call on the degaussed (TM) Duncan magnets.
Duncan began the degaussing campaign decades ago, claiming to age the magnets to simulate old pickups.
AFAIK there are a couple of problems with that.
1) We now know from the family farm pickup makers that magnets (often) come with no charge, and you charge them to whatever gauss you choose.
I doubt Duncan charges them to max and then shakes them in an old tour van to degauss them just right.
2) Stupendous tones heard on classic recordings were made by pickups that were not old/ vintage/ worn in/ degaussed/ relic'd/ etc etc.

Some of the threads right here by Barncaster and others detail gaussing and degaussing, as well as measured gauss numbers. AFAIK one would degauss if they gaussed a little too much, and this is controlled by how close they place the charging magnet to the new pickup magnet. Degaussing I've seen involves reversing the polarity to drive out or reverse the charge. So a factory would be set up to precisely do it to the chosen spec.
Dimarzio has the air buckers with a gap betwen mag and poles to further lower gauss at the top of the pole.
I suspect that Gibson knows the gauss of the magnets effects the sound, and they seem to have hit on a good recipe.

For that neck pup sound you want that has less bass and more clarity, I'd go with the lower wind neck pup, which the Duncans probably have and the 57s might not.
Also lower the bass side of the pup a whole lot!
That 355 will be hard to match from memory.
What you describe is pretty rare IME!

 

[Antigua Tele]

1) We now know from the family farm pickup makers that magnets (often) come with no charge, and you charge them to whatever gauss you choose.
I doubt Duncan charges them to max and then shakes them in an old tour van to degauss them just right.

I find it very difficult to degauss magnets to particular degrees, but if someone is patient, you can set up a system where you expose a magnet to a very particular H field that leaves you with a slightly reduced B, but the problem is, in general, that unless the H fields is very particular, either nothing changes, or you completely overshoot your mark. If there have been threads discussing how to do it, I've missed them.

I did in fact measure a lower gauss reading at the screw tops of the Antiquity HB's I have, and SD claims to "magnetically age" the bar. I don't have reason to doubt them. Although I also have some of their Antiquity Strat and Bass pickups, and I measured full Gauss strength in those pickups. It would be nice if SD was forthcoming about how they "magnetically age" magnets, if only to assure us that they actually do it. It might just refer to that rusty appearance they give them.

 

[telemnemonics]

I find it very difficult to degauss magnets to particular degrees, but if someone is patient, you can set up a system where you expose a magnet to a very particular H field that leaves you with a slightly reduced B, but the problem is, in general, that unless the H fields is very particular, either nothing changes, or you completely overshoot your mark. If there have been threads discussing how to do it, I've missed them.

I did in fact measure a lower gauss reading at the screw tops of the Antiquity HB's I have, and SD claims to "magnetically age" the bar. I don't have reason to doubt them. Although I also have some of their Antiquity Strat and Bass pickups, and I measured full Gauss strength in those pickups. It would be nice if SD was forthcoming about how they "magnetically age" magnets, if only to assure us that they actually do it.

Yeah the impression I've gotten from the advanced DIY'ers is that they can control how much they (add) gauss by the precise distance of the charging magnet, but can't really control how much they degauss, so they degauss and start over.


AFAIK it is possible to degauss a magnet by hitting it with a hammer or smaller instrument, but I'd guess that's not very consistent or accurate either.
Maybe Duncan has a trade secret!

When I bought my first Duncan vintage style (Strat) pickup in '80 or '81 the magnets were called "Dun-aged" IIRC.

 

[MilwMark]

Sometimes I wonder if Seymour just has really good ears and a good scientific and intuitive understanding of how to tweak parameters to hit his ears right. That's overly reductive. But every pickup I try of his is just so good. I mean, subtle, but important, differences to me.

 

[telemnemonics]

Sometimes I wonder if Seymour just has really good ears and a good scientific and intuitive understanding of how to tweak parameters to hit his ears right. That's overly reductive. But every pickup I try of his is just so good. I mean, subtle, but important, differences to me.

Agreed in principle, though Duncan also offers some pickups I don't like at all.
Classic pickups are incredibly simple yet seem less so when comparing how they sound in our guitars!

Re: magnet charging, I had some '60s Mustang pickups I'd acquired over the years and they all sounded too weak/ delicate/ soft to me, compared to Duncan and various vintage staggered and flat Strat pups of similar wind.
I brought them to one of the custom guitar builders in NYC to get recharged, might have been Suhr, but I forget, maybe early 1990s.
They came back sounding harsh and shrill, just from the magnet recharge.
All coils were original except for my having fixed a couple with outer breaks in the winding.

 

[Antigua Tele]

Sometimes I wonder if Seymour just has really good ears and a good scientific and intuitive understanding of how to tweak parameters to hit his ears right. That's overly reductive. But every pickup I try of his is just so good. I mean, subtle, but important, differences to me.

People often don't seem to appreciate the degree to which psychology informs personal preference. You might well have a feed back loop going: "Seymour Duncan is a magician, Seymour Duncan made these pickups, these pickups sound magical, therefore Seymour Duncan is a magician, Seymour Duncan made these pickups, these pickups sound magical..."

TBH I think that's why the boutique pickup market does as well as it does; because guitarists simply trust that these guys know how to make something sound "rock and roll", while simultaneously distrusting generic OEMs in China. I bet if some of those Chinese manufacturers spoke English well enough to, and visited these boards, you'd see their profile improve.

 

[MilwMark]

People often don't seem to appreciate the degree to which psychology informs personal preference. You might well have a feed back loop going: "Seymour Duncan is a magician, Seymour Duncan made these pickups, these pickups sound magical, therefore Seymour Duncan is a magician, Seymour Duncan made these pickups, these pickups sound magical..."

Could be. Though consider that a set of Seths costs less than a set of Classic 57s.
So at least it's not price based confirmation bias. When I look at an open '57 and an open Seth, the '57 wire looks a lot tighter and more regular. I just don't know enough about electronics to say whether that could produce differences.

My local shop carries a line of similar, high end guitars that can come with either Lollards or Duncan's. I'm pretty good at picking out which is which by ear and feel.

Though I should emphasize that I'm not talking about stark differences. Nor claiming to have bats ears.

 

[Straydogger]

57 and 57+ in my Ibanez AS73. Great fit I think. No need now to spend $3000 on a Gibson unless you need the Gibson name on the headstock...

 

[telemnemonics]

Could be. Though consider that a set of Seths costs less than a set of Classic 57s.
So at least it's not price based confirmation bias. When I look at an open '57 and an open Seth, the wire looks a lot tighter and more regular. I just don't know enough about electronics to say whether that could produce differences.

My local shop carries a line of similar, high end guitars that can come with either Lollards or Duncan's. I'm pretty good at picking out which is which by ear and feel.

Though I should emphasize that I'm not talking about stark differences. Nor claiming to have bats ears.

Yeah I'll back the idea that a musicians ears are pretty good devices and useful for deciding which tool does that musicians job better or best.
While I'm sure many hobbyist guitar owners love their pickups because they believe in them, I'm also pretty sure musicians commonly can tell the difference between what's mostly more expensive and what they actually like better.
Personally, there are plenty of expensive pickups in my bins that I had high hopes for but couldn't make work for me.
Sometimes it takes me a few days to be sure, and sometimes I'm taken by first impressions before noticing the problems.

Confirmation bias is a kind of mistake. Its existence does not make it universally applicable.
Presuming that players prefer the more expensive part is itself just another form of confirmation bias.

 

[Golem]

I've preferred Duncan's to Gibson PAFs but admit I've never had a chance to try both in the same exact guitar. 57s aren't bad.

 

[Antigua Tele]

Yeah I'll back the idea that a musicians ears are pretty good devices and useful for deciding which tool does that musicians job better or best.

A musician doesn't actually have to tell the difference between pickup A and pickup B in order to make good music. If you want to know the truth about how two pickups differ, to satisfy your own curiosity, it's not just the imperfections of human hearing that stand in the way, but the numerous other variables that existing in between them, such as the fact that the pickups are in two different guitars, or a long period of time that passes between hearing the two pickups, causing you to becomes less and less sure of what you'd originally heard.

While I'm sure many hobbyist guitar owners love their pickups because they believe in them, I'm also pretty sure musicians commonly can tell the difference between what's mostly more expensive and what they actually like better.

Well, until someone sets out to prove it...