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Drum machine and looper both into one powered speaker? Or what rig?

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by telemnemonics, Jan 10, 2021.

  1. archtop_fjk

    archtop_fjk Tele-Holic

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    I use a Kustom 2x12 powered monitor with my Digitech Trio +. The Trio allows you to route the guitar signal to your amp and the drum/bass signal to the PA. Just adjust the output levels of the monitor and guitar amp and away you go. It also has a looper. This arrangement works very well for me for practicing.
     
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  2. Axegrinder77

    Axegrinder77 Tele-Afflicted Ad Free Member

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    Studio monitors are more for sitting close to and using, well, in the studio. PA speakers or fr frfr are what you'd want live, as they project out over larger space.

    Behringer is budget stuff, but my experience with it has been ok. If it gets you in the game, then that's what matters.

    You've got 3 or more sound sources it seems. I'd want a mixer. You can probably rig up without, but you'll eventually end up getting one anyways I bet. Yamaha, Mackie and Allan Heath are good bang for buck. I have the latter - zed10fx. It might be a bit big for your needs, but that's what I thought for myself. It's amazing how quickly you wish you had more features!
     
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  3. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    I'm trying to work out a sensible first shot at signal chain here in this thread, and one consideration is that the smaller powered speakers that have a built in rudimentary two channel mixer put it on the back, and I'm not sitting behind the speaker in a coffee house.
    I think it shouldn't be much of an issue though since drum machine has an output level and looper into dirt pedal has an output level.
    Once it's basically dialed in I don't tend to keep changing my volume, if my wife is sleeping, no drums!

    I do want/ need a mixer but have noted that today for recording they are less useful with digital.
    Same thing with digital recording gear, I have a bunch of mics from the past but have not shifted to the ever changing digital recording tech.

    Late last night I started searching for powered mixers though, not the same as a nice little Mackie mixer I'd prefer, but if looping is something I get a solid footing in it would be good to have mixing and amping up where it's accessible.

    I'm also thinking I might end up preferring to amp the looped guitar with a guitar amp.
    Being familiar with the reasons I prefer guitar through guitar amps, I'm not sure why I'm willing to give that up with looped guitar parts?
    Seems many looper users go with guitar parts through a PA amp, but when I see demos of looper fanatics they tend to not be guitar sound fanatics.
    Same with character pedals.
    After years of dedicated crafting of awesome guitar toanz, I'm not sure I'm going to be happy with repeated rhythm parts played through a PA.

    So much of the looper based music is almost novelty sounds, and I'm not looking to make arts & crafts soundscapes of clicks & pops.
    It's an interesting new sort of music genre, and often done with great skill and versatility.
    The middle of three videos @jvin248 linked was interesting, but I gotta admit that while she crafted cool enough music, it was her arranging of her hair that I found most fascinating!

    When I get a rhythm part I like enough to let run a while, maybe it deserves an actual guitar amps sound?
    I have plenty of guitar amps, but none really suit drum machine amping.
     
  4. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    OK back to your comment:

    You're running the looped guitar and live guitar into two (I assume?) guitar amps?
    When you have perfectly good drum amping power/ monitors in the room?
    Did you try running both the looper and the drum machine into the audio monitors and didn't like it?

    Seems that's the more common looper user signal chain, everything runs into a PA type amp & speakers.
    I suppose it's also more and more common to go ampless, instead using a character pedal or modeler on the floor etc.

    I'm curious to hear from those who prefer real guitar amps over amp sims, yet then accept repeating rhythm guitar through a sim of some sort.

    Amp sims are not something I'm interested in YET.
    From behind my macbook it's hard to tell if I'm yelling at clouds, or if lots of younger computer based players might be missing out on two or more slamming guitars, because sims are so easy and so 2020.

    Many players maybe never even considered a 100w Marshall.
    Few even who went fully into digital modeling actually claim it's the same as standing in front of a couple of tube amps.
    Or if it's really close, they spent $2000 getting close.
     
  5. fasteddie42

    fasteddie42 Tele-Afflicted

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    I'm new to looping, this is the first one (boss RC-10r) I bought that stuck.

    I haven't experimented or thought too much about it. I already owned audio monitors/audio interface and multiple amps when I bought the looper. Seemed to me that keeping signal paths separate would be the ideal set up, so I just used what I have on hand.

    I typically use a combination of audio monitors/Princeton reverb/pro junior.

    Sometimes I change the placement of my pedal board to be in front of everything or only routing to one of the amps with the use of an A/B/Y switch.

    No matter the smaller variations, the basic signal path is the same:

    guitar to a/b/y switch, A goes to amp no.1 with no loops, B goes to looper (looper has multiple outputs) which sends the rhythm to audio monitors and the loop to amp no.2.

    keeps everything separate and clear and clean.

    It's easier and more intuitive then I'm making it sound :lol:

    20210111_121640.jpg 20210111_121701.jpg
     
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  6. Edgar Allan Presley

    Edgar Allan Presley Friend of Leo's

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    I think drum machines sound best through bass amps. But for what you're doing, I use a Roland Cube Street Ex. I'm not sure you can get one within your very low budget. You might want to save up longer to get something worth keeping.
     
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  7. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Makes total sense to me!
    I'm actually thinking of putting looper and beat buddy on their own board along with whatever FX I want after the looper, for now just a duplicate muff for dirty rhythm.
    The AB pedal to send to main amp or looper could go on either board, probably on the less crowded looper board, then when not using the band in a can I have no extra junk on my main board.
    Other reasons for a second board to house the fake band is the different power supplies.
    Beat Buddy gets a second pedal to access functions but most mid song stuff like changes are accessed via the main FS on the BB.

    All this stuff is a PITA and makes it harder for me to focus on the music part, so/ but, I'm hoping to KISS.
    As always though, planning is never as good as experience!
     
  8. fasteddie42

    fasteddie42 Tele-Afflicted

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    I've actually got a shopping cart full with a similar plan.

    I have a pedaltrain nano as my main board, (tuner/buffer, delay, boost). I really dislike huge busy boards and tap dancing, so instead of buying a larger pedalboard, I'm going buy another nano and make a dedicated "looper" board. It'll be something along the lines of a/b/y switch, looper, additional boss footswitch.

    that way I can keep routing nice and neat and I can add/remove the "looper board" in between setups with relative ease.
     
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  9. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    You and @Obsessed suggested a bass amp and they are cheap & plentiful plus built for severe punishment.

    My concern with bass amps is that I love the sounds of cymbals, and a good slashing hi hat or ride tone needs a good high frequency transducer. Some modern bass amps seem to have some sort of treble boosting management, but that may be more associated with the no longer cool funk slap bass styles.

    The other side of that is I may find the BB cymbal sounds are not what I hear from my own drum kit with lots of vintage Zildjians!
    Pretty much throughout this thread I'm barely in touch with the results I might get with any of the suggested tools.

    Long ago and recently I've considered just playing a simple drum part into a looper with memory, but I don't play drums enough to be up on chops, and the kit is in the unheated garage etc etc.

    I'm keeping an open mind on the bass amp as well as some of the Roland cube variants though.
    Even knowing how loud the drums and looper amp need to be is unclear, and I may find ways to run a tube pedal between looper and PA amp that allows me to be happy with a simple powered PA speaker.
     
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  10. Axegrinder77

    Axegrinder77 Tele-Afflicted Ad Free Member

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    There are many ways to go if course. I agree with you about looping the rhythm guitar "authentically."

    My guitar tone into the mixer is either miked or DI, but it's always real amp tone - whether clean, pedal crunch, or amp breakup. The looper takes the aux out on the mixer, and goes back into a channel strip. I get full control of what's in the loop. I can include backing tracks and even, ahem, vocals if I desire. This also keeps the looper out of my series pedal chain, a bonus.

    This would also allow you to implement the beat buddy into the loop. That may or may not be a benefit, I'm not that experienced with drum machines.

    A simpler way is to use the effects loop of your amp for the looper. My amp doesn't have one, and I wouldn't love the idea of possible impedance issues anyways, but it can certainly work.
     
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  11. Edgar Allan Presley

    Edgar Allan Presley Friend of Leo's

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    A lot of bass amps have full range speakers and more powerful EQ stacks than guitar amps. They can usually handle treble frequencies fine. I have a Fender Rumble 100 that was cheap. It is also weirdly light, and makes a great amp for drum machine, electric violin, or guitar. It's the best jazz guitar amp I own. But it only has one input, so it might not be the jack-of-all-trades-at-the-same-time amp you need.
     
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  12. Obsessed

    Obsessed Telefied Silver Supporter

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    I'm rather fortunate to have a variety of bass amps to select from with a wife that is a bass player. Her bass Roland cube does a good job with symbols, but it has never been a big priority sound for me. Perhaps a different avenue is a powered PA that seem to inherently have a much wider frequency response.
     
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  13. beninma

    beninma Friend of Leo's

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    I think you really want a Boss RC-10R and an amp that has an FX Loop.

    You put the RC-10R in the FX Loop of your guitar amp and it does just about everything you're talking about with no extra hassle other than you now have a 3-4 cable setup vs an amp that just runs everything into the input.

    You will then get your multiple tracks of clean and/or dirty guitar plus non-distorted drums, and you can multi-track a pile of different guitar sounds over each other and they will all play back just the way you want them too. And the RC-10R can EQ the drums for a guitar amp so they sound great.

    Alternatively for the separate times when you do have a separate PA available the RC-10R has a separate output B that will run the drums into that separately. And it has a separate input as well if you want to throw a keyboard/synth into that and add loops from that. Or even run an electronic drum kit in and record that to lay down your own drums.

    Boss really really thought the RC-10R out well and hit it out of the park.

    I really love the RC-10R. I have the ditto & a beat buddy as well. Those always sounded good till I got the RC-10R, the RC-10R sounds a lot better. If you told me I could only have 1 pedal I would likely keep the RC-10R.

    Now whether all this sounds as good at gig volume as thousands of dollars of gear specific to reproducing drums and other sounds.. I don't know. But I have zero interest in ever buying all that gear. And looped drum sounds are never going to sound like a real drummer anyway.
     
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  14. Peegoo

    Peegoo Poster Extraordinaire

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    Have you considered a Roland KC keyboard amp? They are available in a range of power factors and many have multiple inputs with a fader for each one.

    You can find these for around $100 used. They are ruggedly built and are full range with plenty of thump too. Peavey's KB series also is a contender here.

    https://www.roland.com/us/products/kc-60/
     
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  15. DeepDangler

    DeepDangler Tele-Meister

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  16. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    I'm guessing you're not interested in buying the lawn mower I converted to use as a rototiller?
    It really works great, as long as you have excellent balance and steel toed boots.

    Now WRT your description of your setup that you seem to have gotten to by a process of experience and working out bugs, that all sounds pretty good to me!
    Probably helps me, to remember that drum machines are always going to sound a bit off, as I machinate over fantasies of the perfect canned band.
    I do appreciate your input and maybe others looking at the same problems will go to the RC-10r and bigger amp with loop.

    I think I'm still blundering through the thicket with my converted lawn mower for now though!
    My looper is the Pigtronix Infinity and I'm still waiting on the USPS to deliver the second midi cable to hook the two machines together, while eyeing the plywood pile for a PA cab I'm certain is hiding in there somewhere!
     
  17. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    I mentioned the Katana earlier and you're the first to second it.
    You run three things through it?
    At what sort of volume?
    Those are getting reasonably cheap, plus have additional uses.
     
  18. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    @loopfinding suggested a KC but somebody else quickly torpedoed that with claims they blew theirs out of the water with a drum machine.
    Could be they ran it near max and it was just an inevitable result, I'm open to the idea if I see one near me.
     
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  19. beninma

    beninma Friend of Leo's

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    I got great results with the ditto + beat buddy in the loop too.

    Realistically if you're using an amp with a loop I think you're going to get get it all to work fine regardless of what looper/drum machine you use as long as you're not relying heavily on pushing the power section of the amp into tons of dirt.

    If you use the pre-amp for dirt or pedals for dirt an amp with an FX loops is going to go a long way to making this all easy and great sounding.
     
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  20. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    OK so a cheap bass amp is good since I have a bass, need a new fretless bass, and Mr Presley speaketh that the cheapo Rumble 100 is a good Jazz guitar amp.

    My local GC has a poor selection of cheap PA gear but might have more smaller bass amps on the floor, and some may have enough slash for cymbals. I was also thinking of some of the small class D modeling heads for guitar or analog class D bass heads, since i could pair them with a cab I load with my Emi Tonker and a horn.
    Seems like I've seen the Rumble 100 for like $79 though, must be fairly common used, and I often marvel at how small cheap & powerful the 21st C bass combos are.
     
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