Does magnetic out-of-phase sound the exact same as the same as electric/switch out of phase?

homesick345

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If you have a magnetic Out of Phase Gibson

(let's say the neck pickup magnet is flipped) -

Does it sound the same as having two regular pickups with an out of phase wiring switch? Or is it bound to have differences??

thanks
 

Billy3

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Never thought about that. Good question. I don't want to play oop all the time so I have always used a push pull for it. Tempted to see if there is a difference. I don't think it would though. I could be very wrong. Hm??
 

Antigua Tele

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If you have a magnetic Out of Phase Gibson

(let's say the neck pickup magnet is flipped) -

Does it sound the same as having two regular pickups with an out of phase wiring switch? Or is it bound to have differences??

thanks

It would sound the same. The same thing happens in both cases, while one pickup is sending a positive amplitude, the other pickup is sending a negative amplitude, so a cancellation that occurs and all that is left is what is different between their signals. It's the same end result whether you reverse the wires or the magnet.
 

24 track

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the difference would be that a phase switch reverses the current flow to the coil so the current is induced from the end of the winding to the front of the windings
and a reversed wound reversed polarity pick up is wound opposite with the magnetic field oposite,

Phase cancelations will occur in both scenarios but will they sound the same? it would be a similar effect but there may be technical differences in the final result

(its kind of like and this is only an example ,)

current flows from negative to possitive , if you install a switch on the negative side of a circuit , you can cut off power before the device , if you instal a switch on the positive side of a circuit you can still turn the power off, but live current is still active in the device. both give you the desired result but one of these options keeps the device active with live current even with the power off.
 

somebodyelseuk

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Technically, no, but I doubt anyone could hear the difference.

If you believe Bill Puplett, the relative magnetic orientation between two pickups affects how the string vibrates. This is why the Marr Jaguar is not RWRP. My own experience, I have found that to be the case on a Jazzmaster on which I reoriented the magnets and wiring - it is no longer RWRP, and it DOES ring freer as a result.
I will add, though, that this is really only relevant to single coiled pickups, it wouldn't apply to humbuckers.
 

Bob Womack

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There have been discussions for years about the out-of-phase sounds from Peter Green's vintage Les Paul. Pretty much everyone agrees that it sounds different from simply reversing the lines and doing a push-pull switch. Upon inspection it was found that the magnet in one of the humbucking pickups had accidentally been reversed during a service.

Bob
 

Matthias

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Technically, no, but I doubt anyone could hear the difference.

If you believe Bill Puplett, the relative magnetic orientation between two pickups affects how the string vibrates. This is why the Marr Jaguar is not RWRP. My own experience, I have found that to be the case on a Jazzmaster on which I reoriented the magnets and wiring - it is no longer RWRP, and it DOES ring freer as a result.
I will add, though, that this is really only relevant to single coiled pickups, it wouldn't apply to humbuckers.

If this is indeed the case, this may explain a little of that ‘open’ sound people sometimes describe on older Fenders…
 

jvin248

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.

Easier to swap the wiring than the magnets, but a very similar sound.
However, I have not experimented with reversed magnets/wiring A/B with any scientific test yet ... because I don't use the Quack sound on a Strat that often, and I get a OOp/HOOp option with my Armstrong Blender in HSH mode too that I don't use other than a couple of curious hollow twangs then available at the in-between switch locations.

Probably as much practical difference as the tone shift attributed to paint thickness or pickguard color.

If you decide to A/B a test yourself, make sure to keep everything else, including the strings, as common between the examples, and make a recording.

.
 

dasherf17

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It would sound the same. The same thing happens in both cases, while one pickup is sending a positive amplitude, the other pickup is sending a negative amplitude, so a cancellation that occurs and all that is left is what is different between their signals. It's the same end result whether you reverse the wires or the magnet.

(Flipping a switch onstage may be quicker, I'm guessing...:cool:)
That's the first time I've heard this put so positively w/out a lengthy (years was not) explanation. They came to the conclusion there was a difference...there isn't...thank you so much, 'tigua!
 

Winky

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It would sound the same. The same thing happens in both cases, while one pickup is sending a positive amplitude, the other pickup is sending a negative amplitude, so a cancellation that occurs and all that is left is what is different between their signals. It's the same end result whether you reverse the wires or the magnet.

Counterpoint: I'm going to say maybe no. It's to do with the magnetic forces between the permanent magnets and the strings. The two setups will (may?) interact with the strings differently. One may may result inherently more (or less) damping of the strings. My guess would be that magnetically out-of-phase would be less damped, but it is complex, for sure.
 

Antigua Tele

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Technically, no, but I doubt anyone could hear the difference.

If you believe Bill Puplett, the relative magnetic orientation between two pickups affects how the string vibrates. This is why the Marr Jaguar is not RWRP.

Regardless of whether the magnets are oriented north or south, they both pull the guitar strings, neither repels the string, so it doesn't uniquely affect the way the string vibrates. The steel has a low remanence and a high permeability, so it reacts to the magnets, it's not itself a magnet.
 

Antigua Tele

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Counterpoint: I'm going to say maybe no. It's to do with the magnetic forces between the permanent magnets and the strings. The two setups will (may?) interact with the strings differently. One may may result inherently more (or less) damping of the strings. My guess would be that magnetically out-of-phase would be less damped, but it is complex, for sure.

The pickups are just not close enough together, and the guitar string is too thin. If you have a magnetometer on hand, like a WT10A , you can observe the flux density over the pole piece, it's about 500 gauss with a steel/ceramic Strat pickup, and then move the probe about two inches away from the neck, down the fret board, beside the string, and you measure between a flux density of 0G to 1G, no matter how you orient the probe, so the flux is almost non-existent at that distance, guitar string notwithstanding, and the contribution of mutual flux from pickup to pickup is also going to be less than 1%.

If there was a potential for a complete magnetic circuit to pull more on the strings, it would probably require the proximity of a humbucker's two coils, being side by side.

Even then, the main difference would be a magnetic field that is every so slightly weaker or stronger, the same difference you would get from raising or lowering the pickup slightly, so the idea that it results in a wholly different tone is just make believe. It's fun to believe things.
 
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63 vibroverb

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I've tried all 3 (magnet flip, wire swap, and reverse wound) and there are some subtle differences to each. They all sound out-of-phase, yes. But I noticed a difference in the way the volume pots interacted with each other and behaved. Part of the charm of the 2 volume pots is getting all types of different shades of the 2 pickups combined. For example having the neck volume 2 notches higher than the bridge volume gives the nasal sound but with some more fat behind it to keep it from being super thin. Those type of settings differed in sound depending on how you made your pickups out-of-phase.

There's accounts of the tech who repaired Peter's shorted neck pickup. His name was Sam Li and he was more familiar with working on Fenders. According to him, he wound the neck pickup reverse to the bridge pickup unintentionally because Fender singles are typically wound in that direction. Another fact that supports the claims of Sam being a Fender guy was that he used Heavy Formvar wire instead of the normal enamel wire Gibson used. One of the coolest mistakes.
 

Antigua Tele

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I've tried all 3 (magnet flip, wire swap, and reverse wound) and there are some subtle differences to each. They all sound out-of-phase, yes. But I noticed a difference in the way the volume pots interacted with each other and behaved.

The behavior of the volume pot with respect to the pickup is an issue of impedance, varying both series and parallel resistance because of the "voltage divider" wiring arrangement. The impedance is a function of the resistance, the inductance and a little bit the capacitance. OOP or magnet flipping has no impact upon the impedance, because no matter how you orient the magnet or flip the leads, the resistance, inductance and capacitance will be the same in all cases.
 

Winky

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The pickups are just not close enough together, and the guitar string is too thin. If you have a magnetometer on hand, like a WT10A , you can observe the flux density over the pole piece, it's about 500 gauss with a steel/ceramic Strat pickup, and then move the probe about two inches away from the neck, down the fret board, beside the string, and you measure between a flux density of 0G to 1G, no matter how you orient the probe, so the flux is almost non-existent at that distance, guitar string notwithstanding, and the contribution of mutual flux from pickup to pickup is also going to be less than 1%.

If there was a potential for a complete magnetic circuit to pull more on the strings, it would probably require the proximity of a humbucker's two coils, being side by side.

Even then, the main difference would be a magnetic field that is every so slightly weaker or stronger, the same difference you would get from raising or lowering the pickup slightly, so the idea that it results in a wholly different tone is just make believe. It's fun to believe things.
I've been schooled. Mine was a simple hypothesis. I stand corrected.
 




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