Does Learning Jazz Melodies without Understanding the Theory Teach Me Anything?

[timbgtr]

I’m on the theory side, agreeing with a couple of the posts above. It moves you along faster to know what’s going on. Here’s an example from another genre—pedal steel. Most pedal steel instruction, in person and online, is a collection of licks. Now, many of those are awesome licks, and I wish I could do them. But it drives me bonkers to not know what‘s going on. They don’t even tell me what the notes are, so I can’t try other ways of playing those licks and developing similar ones. Pedal steel is one challenging math problem after another in trying to figure out which strings, pedals, and levers to use to get through a sequence of notes or chords.

Jazz is very much the same. People are right when they say that one should be in the moment when playing, but that works when one has put in the time to get a feel for what works and what doesn’t over which chord progression in which style. You can get that learning melodies and transcribed solos, to be sure, but at least for me, the “aha” moments that theory brings are a huge help.

 

[fredmbarros]

I’ve been reading the replies but at some point it became too long. Sorry if I’ll say something someone else said.

One thing I realized throughout the years is that it’s crucial to memorize these things in order for them to get ingrained in your ear too. Someone with a psychology/education background will probably know the reason, but I don’t know. All I can say is that it happened to me and also to some musicians with whom I played. When we stopped reading the chord charts and started playing the songs by memory, the ability to know the chords to other tunes - sometimes based only on the melody - started coming. I’m assuming this works like that to everybody else and will happen to other aspects of playing other than accompanying.

 

[Dmelton1955]

I definitely think so, though it depends on the song. Bebop melodies are essentially chains of bebop licks.

Also, one of the great jazzers (I'm trying to remember who) said one way to improvise is to learn the melody inside and out, then add a bit to it over and over until you are improvising around the melody. Eventually the melody disappears and there is just improvisation.

Finally, even if you never plan to play any of these tunes, if you study how they use the melody over the chords, you are learning some very advanced ways to melodize a chord progression and vice versa.

Definitely good for ear training, I would say just take a tune that's not too complicated, learn the melody and the chords first. Then start looking at what key you are in. If you can hear it in your head I think you can do it. I'm in favor of learning theory but lots of great players do it without. For me theory is just a road map, tools to help me expand, so I use what I can, just remember the melody and the feel

 

[johmica]

Thanks for all of the replies (and keep them coming!). These are my favorite kinds of threads on TDPRI; namely, when folks talk about what has worked/hasn't worked for them personally in their journey to learn the instrument.

The nice thing about about Frank's approach is that he runs through the chord changes several times (usually three or four, depending upon the number of chord changes in the standard), and his melodic suggestions grow in complexity with each repetition. That gives me the opportunity to learn the basic melody on the first go-around, and then compare that to the more complex approaches that follow.

What I haven't done yet is to break down the melodies into component parts related to each individual chord. In other words, I can play the five or so standards, but I'm not always cognizant of the chord that I'm playing over at any given moment. I've just memorized the solos as wholes. I'm going to try to go back to the first song tonight (Black Orpheus), and begin to analyze what Frank is doing on a chord-to-chord basis. This change in my approach is a direct result of some of the comments to my OP, so again, thanks for the replies.

 

[Telecaster88]

You'll train your ear, and start to recognize and reproduce certain intervals and sounds via muscle memory (i.e., you imagine a sound in your head, and having played those intervals before learning melodies, you can match the sound with movement and positioning of your fingers).

This has been my experience exactly. I've been playing for forty years with no training, and no real knowledge of "theory" outside what I pick up via osmosis through just plucking away, trying new stuff. I love learning weird chords and melodies, especially old pop standards. This has taught my brain to intuitively know where to go to find a certain interval. It also reveals melodic patterns and how to find them in different places on the fretboard. I assume this is all stuff I could have learned in lessons or studying theory, but it just never worked out that way for me. Maybe it's taken me longer to progress, but the thrill of discovery keeps my playing/brain fresh, and everything I learn I then start applying immediately to my own songwriting.

 

[stratman82]

Great thread this. Especially as I’ve been on the jazz journey and using several Truefire courses (including Franks) too. Worth pointing out that the courses initially mentioned don’t include the classic jazz standard “melodies” or “heads” as might be implied above. The courses launch straight into tabbed out solos that Frank has improvised, with increasing complexity.

I’ve had exactly the same questions as the OP and have kind of flitted between attempts at learning theory in depth and just concentrating on rote learning of tabbed out comping and solos. Rote learning is probably more instantly rewarding and fun but I’ve found that (if not maintained by regular rehearsing of the pre-learned material) it kind of vanishes and leaves me back at Jazz newby level with very little to say.

So I’ve still not worked out the answers, but can empathise with the question!

 

[stratman82]

Ps I’d also mention Ted Ludwig’s Truefire courses and in particular his recent one on blues to Bepop.

 

[String Tree]

Another pedagogy question with a little (probably too much) background:

I've been working on tons of TrueFire lessons since being off work with my hip replacement (I've got five more weeks before I return to work). One of the things I've been working on is learning songs from Frank Vignola's Jazz Guitar Fakebook series.

I first learn the rhythm changes, beginning with Frank's suggested comping approaches, but eventually learning the songs well enough that I can grab the appropriate chords in any position, up and down the neck. There's obvious benefit to this approach: I'm learning new chord shapes and extensions, and I'm able to use those ideas in other tunes.

After mastering the rhythm (I'm up to six whole standards), I then learn his melodic suggestions as presented in his Jazz Guitar Fakebook: Soloing Editions. As well as getting the licks under my belt, I also listen to his explanations. I've learned four of his melodies so far, and I'm currently about halfway through his rendition of Blue Bossa.

These solos are TONS of fun to play, and I'm not really looking for an excuse to change my approach whatsoever, but I am curious to hear from some of you guys and gals with jazz chops. Am I really getting anything from learning these melodies note-for-note that will eventually translate into a more generalized ability to solo over jazz changes?

Will learning 30 or 50 of Frank's suggested melodies eventually just put chops in my fingers, in the same way that learning a hundred blues leads has led me to be a somewhat competent blues soloist?

Learning the Melodies without the Theory is OK.
Learning Anything NEW is OK.
Who knows, maybe you will come around to that stuff later on.
If you Like something, don't let Anything get in your way.
-ST

 

[String Tree]

FWIW - I know LOTS of Theory.
But, that's me and who I am.
I look at Theory as a Slice of History. What has already been done and how to classify it for retrieval at a Later time.

 

[chris m.]

A musician who can play a song without knowing how to explain exactly why what he is playing works is way ahead of a musician who can explain how a song is constructed but can't actually play it.

 

[BlueGillGreg]

Since you're enjoying this so much, keep going!

I'd suggest learning the real melody in addition to all that, and probably learning it first along with the lyric.

Often the melody comes from exaggerating the melodic inflections of the lyric when the lyric is still in the form of spoken word. This goes for both pitch and rhythm. Learning the lyrics and melody are the core of the song. The chords come third, after the lyric and melody.

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. Watch some Gene Kelley.

 

[Supertwang]

I think learning anything is good compared to learning nothing. Learning some theory helps you understand the "how" and "why" and "what" you can play when and where. There are musicians that don't know much theory but have a 2500 song repertoire and through all those songs they understand what works in music and what you can play over this or that,...they already know what it's going to sound like before anythings is played. You should at least know enough theory to transpose tunes into a different key.

 

[sinecrafter]

Will learning 30 or 50 of Frank's suggested melodies eventually just put chops in my fingers, in the same way that learning a hundred blues leads has led me to be a somewhat competent blues soloist?

"Theory" is just a way of explaining why things sound a certain way. It's not much use if you don't listen to the music and feel it. So, are you listening to the music, and remembering how it make you feel? If you are, then you are on the right path. Anyone can tell you that a tonic, subdominant, dominant harmonic progression "resolves" in a satisfying way, but if you don't feel that satisfaction, no amount of "theory" is going to impart it to you.

 

[mrgeeze]

What you're doing is a great thing.
Keep going.
Ahmed Jamal Died yesterday. Learn Poinciana.
Wayne Shorter died a little while back. Learn Footprints.
Think of them whenver you play them. You help keep them alive.
Believe me.

 

[gitapik]

I learned melodies and chords without knowing what I was doing at first. That and my upbringing listening to jazz and classical music did a nice job of getting me around the fingerboard and having fun on my own and with friends.

Adding the theory later in life made it easier to expand on comping and solos and, most importantly, playing with others. The theory adds a lot to your ability to understand and communicate.

 

[teletail]

A musician who can play a song without knowing how to explain exactly why what he is playing works is way ahead of a musician who can explain how a song is constructed but can't actually play it.

And a musician who can play a song AND explain exactly why what he is playing works is light years ahead of both of them.

These things aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[bigbenbob]

Another pedagogy question with a little (probably too much) background:

I've been working on tons of TrueFire lessons since being off work with my hip replacement (I've got five more weeks before I return to work). One of the things I've been working on is learning songs from Frank Vignola's Jazz Guitar Fakebook series.

I first learn the rhythm changes, beginning with Frank's suggested comping approaches, but eventually learning the songs well enough that I can grab the appropriate chords in any position, up and down the neck. There's obvious benefit to this approach: I'm learning new chord shapes and extensions, and I'm able to use those ideas in other tunes.

After mastering the rhythm (I'm up to six whole standards), I then learn his melodic suggestions as presented in his Jazz Guitar Fakebook: Soloing Editions. As well as getting the licks under my belt, I also listen to his explanations. I've learned four of his melodies so far, and I'm currently about halfway through his rendition of Blue Bossa.

These solos are TONS of fun to play, and I'm not really looking for an excuse to change my approach whatsoever, but I am curious to hear from some of you guys and gals with jazz chops. Am I really getting anything from learning these melodies note-for-note that will eventually translate into a more generalized ability to solo over jazz changes?

Will learning 30 or 50 of Frank's suggested melodies eventually just put chops in my fingers, in the same way that learning a hundred blues leads has led me to be a somewhat competent blues soloist?

Yes, I think learning melodies that go with the changes will help your ear to hand training. Me, I learned scales in 12 positions, all the modes of the scales, and then playing sequences of 3rds, triads, etc. That,s the basic ear to hand training g. Then I played real book tunes, first the head and then trying to play a chord for each melody note with that note on top. By the time I'd done some of that, things started to take shape.
Doing what you describe should help get your ears and hands connected thru your brain. But make sure to also take what you've learned and apply it in different places. E.g., figure out what licks from a Blue Bossa solo can be used some place in Autumn Leaves.....etc. then you'll start to put it all together. You should be ballin by the time you have to get back to work.

 

[zeke54]

If you are learning from it , go for it . I started playing 55 years ago , I didn't take lessons , didn't study books , didn't learn tab . I learned by watching and listening to songs and players . My style has evolved from that , what is my style ? It is a composite of music I learned by being in copy bands . I'm sure there are many of us on this forum that developed like this . We did not have Internet lessons like are available today . Musicians are so lucky today to have that access . Use it . Learn. Play !

 

[Matias]

It helped my phrasing immensely!!! Listen to Miles Davis and John Coletrane, Charley Parker and whatever jazz you like. It’s worth it.

 

[studio]

Take some time and study the song.
Find common chord structures and circle them on the sheet.

Like, find the ii V I turnarounds in the song. Once you know where they are in the song you'll know how to apply the notes on top every time.

Just like what others have said, you can carry that over to other songs with the same progressions.

There's a old John Mclaughlin video where he listens to a song, breaks it down from the lead sheet, circles the common progressions and then it becomes easier to improvise over it.

It's a great video series I found on the YouTube.