Does Learning Jazz Melodies without Understanding the Theory Teach Me Anything?

[johmica]

Another pedagogy question with a little (probably too much) background:

I've been working on tons of TrueFire lessons since being off work with my hip replacement (I've got five more weeks before I return to work). One of the things I've been working on is learning songs from Frank Vignola's Jazz Guitar Fakebook series.

I first learn the rhythm changes, beginning with Frank's suggested comping approaches, but eventually learning the songs well enough that I can grab the appropriate chords in any position, up and down the neck. There's obvious benefit to this approach: I'm learning new chord shapes and extensions, and I'm able to use those ideas in other tunes.

After mastering the rhythm (I'm up to six whole standards), I then learn his melodic suggestions as presented in his Jazz Guitar Fakebook: Soloing Editions. As well as getting the licks under my belt, I also listen to his explanations. I've learned four of his melodies so far, and I'm currently about halfway through his rendition of Blue Bossa.

These solos are TONS of fun to play, and I'm not really looking for an excuse to change my approach whatsoever, but I am curious to hear from some of you guys and gals with jazz chops. Am I really getting anything from learning these melodies note-for-note that will eventually translate into a more generalized ability to solo over jazz changes?

Will learning 30 or 50 of Frank's suggested melodies eventually just put chops in my fingers, in the same way that learning a hundred blues leads has led me to be a somewhat competent blues soloist?

 

[ChicknPickn]

Since I don't play from classical notation and have no intentions of learning to, maybe my opinion is worth little. All I can say is that our final product is music. If you're making it and enjoying the process, theory is "extra." You're a musician.

 

[Harry Styron]

My own experience is that the learning from the lessons will not really sink in unless you play with others. I have also found that practicing with a metronome or a rhythm track helps to build muscle memory because it forces you toward playing the same thing each time.

 

[drmordo]

I definitely think so, though it depends on the song. Bebop melodies are essentially chains of bebop licks.

Also, one of the great jazzers (I'm trying to remember who) said one way to improvise is to learn the melody inside and out, then add a bit to it over and over until you are improvising around the melody. Eventually the melody disappears and there is just improvisation.

Finally, even if you never plan to play any of these tunes, if you study how they use the melody over the chords, you are learning some very advanced ways to melodize a chord progression and vice versa.

 

[klasaine]

: I'm learning new chord shapes and extensions, and I'm able to use those ideas in other tunes.

This how all good musicians "get better".
Apply what you learn from one thing to another.

Try to fit any of the Vignola stuff into anything else you know that's even remotely jazzy. Sometimes things don't fit. Or, sometimes you have tweak what you're trying to make fit. That's fine. That's how it works.

Most of the chords from Blue Bossa will fit into any other Cm Blues type tune. You may want use the voicings sparingly in an Albert King tune but you can usually throw one or two in. You just gotta learn where/how to do it.

*Always transpose anything you learn to at least one other key. There are tons of minor blues in Am and Dm. Learn all those Blue Bossa chords in Am and Dm.

Understanding the theory behind it all can help, but it's not mandatory.

 

[CB_2005]

I have been doing some "jazz dabbling" and I have found that there are some structures that are used regularly like the ii V I. Playing along helped me see where those can fit into a song. I have been working on basic song chord melody and when it comes to adding jazzy parts it helped me with that also.

 

[4pickupguy]

Like others have said, learning just to play it is reward enough. But, just by learning it you will likely gain the following:
1. You might recognize that little turn around or chord sequence when you hear it somewhere else.
2. You can pick the melody notes out of the chords (because they will be in there) and possibly associate it to them. Do the same for that walking bass.
They are fun to play and sound good is enough reason to learn them though!
I tried to learn how to use tri-tone subs on melodies and solos and could not keep up with the tune while I attempted to ‘calculate’ where that new chord was. I saw this video and now it makes sense to me (mainly because it a position thing to me now). Its just a nugget but it’s been a real help. Explained by a non jazz guy. Watch to the end (its short) because gets easier to grasp as he gives examples. He’s the keyboardist for Jamiroquai. You will see these in those chord melodies you’re learning.

 

[SixStringSlinger]

I'd say it trains your fingers and your ears, even if it doesn't engage your brain in the same way a more "academic" study would.

Either/both is/are good.

 

[mandoloony]

Theory is just a set of nomenclature that describes patterns in music. Knowing the nomenclature helps you communicate with other musicians, but understanding the patterns is what makes for a well-rounded musician. Learning melodies will help you learn why those songs work, even if it doesn't put it into words.

 

[Killing Floor]

You may not have an understanding of the theory to translate or teach. But you definitely will learn to some extent. Imagine learning how to speak in another language without being able to write within its rules. You still are learning.

 

[ASATKat]

Another pedagogy question with a little (probably too much) background:

I've been working on tons of TrueFire lessons since being off work with my hip replacement (I've got five more weeks before I return to work). One of the things I've been working on is learning songs from Frank Vignola's Jazz Guitar Fakebook series.

I first learn the rhythm changes, beginning with Frank's suggested comping approaches, but eventually learning the songs well enough that I can grab the appropriate chords in any position, up and down the neck. There's obvious benefit to this approach: I'm learning new chord shapes and extensions, and I'm able to use those ideas in other tunes.

After mastering the rhythm (I'm up to six whole standards), I then learn his melodic suggestions as presented in his Jazz Guitar Fakebook: Soloing Editions. As well as getting the licks under my belt, I also listen to his explanations. I've learned four of his melodies so far, and I'm currently about halfway through his rendition of Blue Bossa.

These solos are TONS of fun to play, and I'm not really looking for an excuse to change my approach whatsoever, but I am curious to hear from some of you guys and gals with jazz chops. Am I really getting anything from learning these melodies note-for-note that will eventually translate into a more generalized ability to solo over jazz changes?

Will learning 30 or 50 of Frank's suggested melodies eventually just put chops in my fingers, in the same way that learning a hundred blues leads has led me to be a somewhat competent blues soloist?

Yes, it's all about your ear/fingers when you play like Frank.
Still aside from that, learn harmony and theories, all the mini lessons that get absorbed into the whole playing style.

 

[Leon Grizzard]

I agree with all above and add, or reiterate that it's making your fingers move outside your present familiar paths, and will make it easier to play the melodies to songs, which is both difficult and a very useful skill.

 

[trandy9850]

All learning is a good thing.

 

[USian Pie]

Yes. I think it will help tremendously but maybe in an unexpected way.

As you learn the solos and compare them to the changes, you will start to see those cases where a note was "outside" the current chord but somehow worked. Then you will see the context of the note -- what came before it and where it went next.

Was it anticipating the next chord? Was it moving chromatically? Was is it a blues phrase?

This is just my opinion but I think many jazz musicians make a few more "mistakes" than they let on. By that, I mean they sometimes play a note that isn't exactly what they intended. But the secret is they figure out how to make it work right then and there. And sometimes that "mistake" turns out to be more interesting than what they meant to play in the first place.

And learning that creates a little big of tricks you can use if/when you make a mistake yourself. Oh, I played a flat ninth? Well let me just resolve that at exactly the right moment to create tension and resolution. Whoops -- minor third over a major chord? Well how about finishing it as a blues lick?

The difference between a "wrong note" and a "passing tone" is often the attitude behind it (and how long you stay on it).

 

[ndcaster]

spitting facts:



melodies are chords, and chords are melodies:

 

[Vognell]

You'll train your ear, and start to recognize and reproduce certain intervals and sounds via muscle memory (i.e., you imagine a sound in your head, and having played those intervals before learning melodies, you can match the sound with movement and positioning of your fingers).

You may also get a feel for how the melody works over the harmony, but I think you can get more out it if you can analyze how the melody works within the harmony (and how the harmony works with the melody). That kind of dissection requires some background in theory.

I like identifying the "chord tones" in the melody, and then isolating the "color tones" to see how they are playing off the chords (what kind of tension and feel they give to it), and how that can suggest different extensions or voicings of the chord, or ways to play "chord melody". Not a necessary exercise, but I'm curious how these things work.

 

[RCinMempho]

If you aren't satisfied with NOT knowing some of the theory, then hit up youtube. You can probably find someone doing a chord/harmony/arrangement analysis of some of the tunes you already know now. You might be surprised how much of it makes sense because you already know the song. If it doesn't, so what? You're no worse off than now.

If I can learn one little tidbit from a new song, that's a big win for me. Ten or twenty songs later, that's a whole bag full of tidbits.

 

[teletail]

Does learning a lick without knowing what the notes are or the chords under it teach you anything? Sure, but you're better off knowing what notes you are playing and what chords you are playing over.

Same thing with your question - Does it teach you anything? Sure, but why would you put in all that time and effort and not bother to learn some theory? You don't need to be able to write a 200 page doctoral thesis on a Beethoven Symphony for theory to be useful.

And this is in no way comparable to learning a bunch of blues licks. With most blues tunes, you're looking a 3 chords - I, IV, V. You practically have to try to hit a wrong note.

Good luck. I studied theory as a music major in college and it's helped me in just about every band I've been in, in one way or another. The only people who don't think theory is useful is the ones that don't know it.

 

[blowtorch]

I'll say yes and the snobby booky theory "you're doing it wrong" guys will likely say no

 

[IggyT]

Another pedagogy question with a little (probably too much) background:

I've been working on tons of TrueFire lessons since being off work with my hip replacement (I've got five more weeks before I return to work). One of the things I've been working on is learning songs from Frank Vignola's Jazz Guitar Fakebook series.

I first learn the rhythm changes, beginning with Frank's suggested comping approaches, but eventually learning the songs well enough that I can grab the appropriate chords in any position, up and down the neck. There's obvious benefit to this approach: I'm learning new chord shapes and extensions, and I'm able to use those ideas in other tunes.

After mastering the rhythm (I'm up to six whole standards), I then learn his melodic suggestions as presented in his Jazz Guitar Fakebook: Soloing Editions. As well as getting the licks under my belt, I also listen to his explanations. I've learned four of his melodies so far, and I'm currently about halfway through his rendition of Blue Bossa.

These solos are TONS of fun to play, and I'm not really looking for an excuse to change my approach whatsoever, but I am curious to hear from some of you guys and gals with jazz chops. Am I really getting anything from learning these melodies note-for-note that will eventually translate into a more generalized ability to solo over jazz changes?

Will learning 30 or 50 of Frank's suggested melodies eventually just put chops in my fingers, in the same way that learning a hundred blues leads has led me to be a somewhat competent blues soloist?

I would say Absolutely! After all we’re trying to play tunes and the melody is the most recognizable part of a tune. In fact : the melody is “theoretically” derived from the changes. The average listener will recognize the tune and not whether your use of whole tone or altered dominant scale was theoretically correct