Yep, closed loop between speakers and strings!
Every try a SR and a Marshall together?
Heaven on earth!
The actual voice of God!
Do amps sound better loud?
- Thread starter srblue5
- Start date
Every try a SR and a Marshall together?
Heaven on earth!
The actual voice of God!
Ribot is funny, love how he speaks in ironies we will either grok or vomit over.Interesting take from avant-garde jazzer, session player (Tom Waits, etc) and sometime Tele-slinger Marc Ribot on this topic from last year:
Marc Ribot Makes the Case for Loud Music
Hi. My name is Marc. I’m a guitarist who points extremely loud amplifiers directly at his head. Very often. Sometimes as often as 200 nights a year for the past 45 years. Audiologists say this coul…lithub.com
I take it less that he's advocating for a multiple stack face-blistering approach, but rather that pushing whatever equipment you do have close to its operating limits is where the magic happens, and I sort of agree with that.
Junior59
TDPRI Member
PR on 7. And a Tubescreamer
Monoprice99
Tele-Meister
Clean headroom factors into size of amps. They all seem to have a sweetest spot at around the 2 o'clock volume position. That's relative to the output of the amp, then there's the speaker(s) performance.
teletail
Friend of Leo's
Not to me. I use my ‘66 bandmaster for a practice amp at a very low level. Sounds great.
Brent Hutto
Tele-Afflicted
I'm not surprised. That's a great amp and there's no reason to think it won't sound great at a wide range of different loudness levels.
I think "louder is better" operates mostly in comparisons. There are plenty of great sounding amp at very low practice volumes. So if that's how you decide to use them, they sound great.
But if you were to go over halfway through practice and nudge the volume up a bit on your Bandmaster, most people would say "Wow that sounds even better". Then a few minutes later you bump it up another notch, even better still.
Or maybe the other way around you get it really cooked at high volume, dialed in perfectly but after a few minutes you dial the volume way back. Most people will think it sounds "small" when it is turned down.
Some musicians talk about "intentionality" as regards the moment to moment technique of playing their instrument. I think intentionality w.r.t. how loud you play a big old amp matters. You have a target volume for your practice sessions and so you set the Bandmaster accordingly and you leave it there. You don't view practice-amp volume as being something small, you view it as your intended sound (for that session).
omahaaudio
Friend of Leo's
SORRY. CAN"T HEAR YOU.
redchapterjubilee
Tele-Meister
Amps have a “sweet spot”. Sometimes that sweet spot is wide, sometimes narrow. Marshalls want to be turned up Or they sound thin. My mark I wants to be turned up to take the blanket off the amp. Fenders like that 3-5 zone. I’m sure there’s more.
For years I ran a band that thought it was dynamic, trying to be quiet and then LOUD. our quiet was likely louder than most folks’ LOUD. My bandmate saw it as a litmus test. If you were still in the room after a few songs then you were our people. If you wanted to talk over bands playing background music we weren’t your band. There is something to be said for this approach, but I found that we likely alienated more than we attracted. Even people that liked the band and would say, “I couldn’t tell there were good songs in there until I heard the record, at the show its way too loud to tell.”
I’m trying to be more mindful of dynamics so when the loud comes in it’s more impactful and not just trying to push people out the room all the time. Unless the song calls for it.
For years I ran a band that thought it was dynamic, trying to be quiet and then LOUD. our quiet was likely louder than most folks’ LOUD. My bandmate saw it as a litmus test. If you were still in the room after a few songs then you were our people. If you wanted to talk over bands playing background music we weren’t your band. There is something to be said for this approach, but I found that we likely alienated more than we attracted. Even people that liked the band and would say, “I couldn’t tell there were good songs in there until I heard the record, at the show its way too loud to tell.”
I’m trying to be more mindful of dynamics so when the loud comes in it’s more impactful and not just trying to push people out the room all the time. Unless the song calls for it.
telel6s
Tele-Afflicted
(I did not read all five pages of responses, so maybe someone else has already said something similar.)
In my limited experience, it can depend on the amp, the speakers, the type or style of music being played, the guitar, the player. Also, my comments are based on basically a guitar into an amp, not using an amp as a pedal platform.
I used to have a Dr Z Carmen Ghia. Fantastic gigging amp because turned up it was not overly loud but could keep up with drummers. For what many consider to be a simple electronic circuit, the Ghias just have that mojo. But played at home? With volume at about 20%? Nope; flat and lifeless to my ears. So the Carmen Ghia definitely sounds better when turned up.
I also have a 72 non-master Super Reverb. No need to describe how good a Super Reverb sounds at 7 on the volume knob. But I also love the sound of that amp on 2 just sitting in my house and still able to hear the TV while I'm messing around on the guitar. Obviously 2 and 7 don't sound the same but they both sound nice and are fun to play. That's with the original 4x10 speakers or it's current 1x12 configuration.
In the middle is my non-reverb Princeton. At low levels it doesn't do the thing that the SR does. But it also doesn't need to be turned way up like the Carmen Ghia to become fun to play and listen to. I do find the guitar makes a difference on this one. Low output single coils on my Tele or an old Yamaha are meh at lower levels, but the extra kick of P90s do more to the front end. I did one time run the Princeton into the SR's 4x10 cab (rewired for 8 ohms) and it was much better at the low levels with the extra speakers. I've often thought it would be fun to package the Princeton with a 4x10 or even 4x8 cabinet, but have never gotten around to trying that out.
I've had similar experiences with other amps that I've owned and/or played through. This is a generalization, but I kind of prefer a more powerful amp (say 25+ watts) through at least a 1x12 for low volumes over a small amp. Of course a great thing about small amps is you can crank them up without blowing out the windows or the front ten rows at a club/bar, but even then just 5 or 7 watts can be too loud for some situations.
In my limited experience, it can depend on the amp, the speakers, the type or style of music being played, the guitar, the player. Also, my comments are based on basically a guitar into an amp, not using an amp as a pedal platform.
I used to have a Dr Z Carmen Ghia. Fantastic gigging amp because turned up it was not overly loud but could keep up with drummers. For what many consider to be a simple electronic circuit, the Ghias just have that mojo. But played at home? With volume at about 20%? Nope; flat and lifeless to my ears. So the Carmen Ghia definitely sounds better when turned up.
I also have a 72 non-master Super Reverb. No need to describe how good a Super Reverb sounds at 7 on the volume knob. But I also love the sound of that amp on 2 just sitting in my house and still able to hear the TV while I'm messing around on the guitar. Obviously 2 and 7 don't sound the same but they both sound nice and are fun to play. That's with the original 4x10 speakers or it's current 1x12 configuration.
In the middle is my non-reverb Princeton. At low levels it doesn't do the thing that the SR does. But it also doesn't need to be turned way up like the Carmen Ghia to become fun to play and listen to. I do find the guitar makes a difference on this one. Low output single coils on my Tele or an old Yamaha are meh at lower levels, but the extra kick of P90s do more to the front end. I did one time run the Princeton into the SR's 4x10 cab (rewired for 8 ohms) and it was much better at the low levels with the extra speakers. I've often thought it would be fun to package the Princeton with a 4x10 or even 4x8 cabinet, but have never gotten around to trying that out.
I've had similar experiences with other amps that I've owned and/or played through. This is a generalization, but I kind of prefer a more powerful amp (say 25+ watts) through at least a 1x12 for low volumes over a small amp. Of course a great thing about small amps is you can crank them up without blowing out the windows or the front ten rows at a club/bar, but even then just 5 or 7 watts can be too loud for some situations.
Guitarteach
Doctor of Teleocity
Hell yeah.. esp. a Boogie or a Marshall
I think so, not painfully loud, but loud-ish (loutish?).
I like my tone/sound clean, but, uh, undeniably “present”.
I like my tone/sound clean, but, uh, undeniably “present”.
Personally I do not agree with the often repeated claim that (tube) amps have a sweet spot.
To me that is like saying guitars have a sweet pickup selection, like Strat players who prefer the neck pickup claiming that the neck pickup is the sweet spot on a Strat.
I certainly find some amps are better at certain things they do, like old four input Marshalls are better at Rock distortion with liquid sustain, than Twin Reverbs are, and Twin Reverbs are, well, no, Twin Reverbs are not better at cleans than old four input Marshalls, BUT, many players believe Marshalls are not good for cleans because they are so bought into the idea that every amp has a sweet spot and they do not bother to learn to use the rest of the amps potential.
One could say Twin Reverbs are better for surf, and less good for Rock, but players manage to play Rock with Twin Reverbs.
Quite a few will say Twin Reverbs need to be turned up to aound good but that is the easiest example of belief in "the sweet spot concept" limiting players use of tube amps.
Another example of the sweet spot concept being 100% "my fave spot" and not at all a scientific view of the amps, is how some love a cranked Champ (or tweed Deluxe) while others for example @Jakedog do not like that sound at all.
I am also not a fan of small cranked amps with sort of mushy articulation and indistinct bass.
So your sweet spot might be my useless spot.
Many players may also have two types of sound and require spring reverb for the clean sound. Those players may feel Marshall cleans are no good because they lack Fender reverb.
Turn the reverb off on your Fender amp you feel has better cleans than Marshall cleans and compare the two clean sounds without reverb. Might discover that Marshall cleans are better!
But then big four input Marshalls have quite a lot of extra high end available, specifically added to the preamp section during the mid 1960s to ensure at full distorted volume with GB speakers that could barely handle the power, the extra treble in the preamp made it possible to still have extra cut for a neck HB if you used a Gibson.
So to get good clean sounds from a classic Marshall, you need to dial the front end very differently from a Twin Reverb.
May need to trun the presence to zero, the treble below noon and the mids below noon. Plus for me if running an old Marshall clean, I also use the guitar volume to further warm up the tone.
But there are beautiful lower volume cleans in old Marshalls that many believe have a sweet spot which is all loud & dirty.
To me that is like saying guitars have a sweet pickup selection, like Strat players who prefer the neck pickup claiming that the neck pickup is the sweet spot on a Strat.
I certainly find some amps are better at certain things they do, like old four input Marshalls are better at Rock distortion with liquid sustain, than Twin Reverbs are, and Twin Reverbs are, well, no, Twin Reverbs are not better at cleans than old four input Marshalls, BUT, many players believe Marshalls are not good for cleans because they are so bought into the idea that every amp has a sweet spot and they do not bother to learn to use the rest of the amps potential.
One could say Twin Reverbs are better for surf, and less good for Rock, but players manage to play Rock with Twin Reverbs.
Quite a few will say Twin Reverbs need to be turned up to aound good but that is the easiest example of belief in "the sweet spot concept" limiting players use of tube amps.
Another example of the sweet spot concept being 100% "my fave spot" and not at all a scientific view of the amps, is how some love a cranked Champ (or tweed Deluxe) while others for example @Jakedog do not like that sound at all.
I am also not a fan of small cranked amps with sort of mushy articulation and indistinct bass.
So your sweet spot might be my useless spot.
Many players may also have two types of sound and require spring reverb for the clean sound. Those players may feel Marshall cleans are no good because they lack Fender reverb.
Turn the reverb off on your Fender amp you feel has better cleans than Marshall cleans and compare the two clean sounds without reverb. Might discover that Marshall cleans are better!
But then big four input Marshalls have quite a lot of extra high end available, specifically added to the preamp section during the mid 1960s to ensure at full distorted volume with GB speakers that could barely handle the power, the extra treble in the preamp made it possible to still have extra cut for a neck HB if you used a Gibson.
So to get good clean sounds from a classic Marshall, you need to dial the front end very differently from a Twin Reverb.
May need to trun the presence to zero, the treble below noon and the mids below noon. Plus for me if running an old Marshall clean, I also use the guitar volume to further warm up the tone.
But there are beautiful lower volume cleans in old Marshalls that many believe have a sweet spot which is all loud & dirty.
robt57
Telefied
Mostly in the ears of the pick holder, and the drunks in great moods @ gigs?
But anyone with subs knows SPL induced psysical reponse feels good..
But anyone with subs knows SPL induced psysical reponse feels good..
Greg70
Tele-Holic
Virtually every master volume amp I have ever played through sounds like garbage at 40% or higher, assuming the preamp is cranked a bit. I think my Marshall sounds best with the master at around 1.5-2. It has a ton of preamp gain so there's no extra distortion to be had. More volume just makes it muddier, and it's certainly not needed at that point! It really rolls off the highs when you have to put earplugs in!
The other big consideration is the feedback between the guitar and amp. At low bedroom volumes there really is none. Dynamics are also obviously more improved at higher volumes because there a larger decibel range available between 0 and whatever your max is.
The other big consideration is the feedback between the guitar and amp. At low bedroom volumes there really is none. Dynamics are also obviously more improved at higher volumes because there a larger decibel range available between 0 and whatever your max is.
maxvintage
Poster Extraordinaire
In a general sense EVERYTHING sounds better louder. This is an extremely well known phenomenon of psychoacoustics, extremely well documented and studied scientifically. If you play someone two identical tracks and turn one up by as little as 1-2 decibels, they will universally hear the louder one as sounding better. Stereo salesmen used to routinely use this to upsell people o the more expensive gear, and lots of audio plugins sneak a 2 Db volume boost into their output so you hear it as "wow better."
Personally I'm just over loud volume and if the music is too loud I'm outta there or wearing earplugs. yeah yeah not very rock and roll, blah bah
Personally I'm just over loud volume and if the music is too loud I'm outta there or wearing earplugs. yeah yeah not very rock and roll, blah bah
Dostradamas
Tele-Afflicted
My Excelsior definitely sounds best to me at near wide open volume (9-9.5)
That said my Yamaha JX35 SS Sounds great everywhere above 2 volume.
The eq settings change but it sounds great at about all volumes to me.
That said my Yamaha JX35 SS Sounds great everywhere above 2 volume.
The eq settings change but it sounds great at about all volumes to me.
Tim Hicks
TDPRI Member
Not a dumb question at all.
My answer is YES, but could you repeat the question as I have damaged my hearing!
Seriously though, a major factor is that the amp needs to be driving the speaker at the right level for the speaker to sound good. Over the years I have tried different mostly valve amps into different speakers from 6" to 15" and I have even tried speakers not meant for guitar. The right match at the right volume to drive the speaker at its best is something to behold! But do be careful you do not damage your hearing...
I do recall the two Tweed Bassman RI amps I had really did need to be turned up.
Both had those strident blue alnico tens and I think those were part of it, more watts made those speakers compress a bit and smooth out the tone.
Not a fun amp home alone but in a bar the sound was just perfect and not even really distorted or specifically clean.
Just a perfect guitar tone as long as the amp was turned up and in a mix.
Both had those strident blue alnico tens and I think those were part of it, more watts made those speakers compress a bit and smooth out the tone.
Not a fun amp home alone but in a bar the sound was just perfect and not even really distorted or specifically clean.
Just a perfect guitar tone as long as the amp was turned up and in a mix.
rdjones
Tele-Holic
Simple answer:
Yes.
Reason:
Let's just say it has to do with "dynamic range".
Even a purely "clean" amp will be in its optimum range when operated around 30-50% of its rated power.
Noise, distortion, efficiency are factors.
You don't need a 100 Watt amp if you only ever play at 10 or 15 Watts.
Yes.
Reason:
Let's just say it has to do with "dynamic range".
Even a purely "clean" amp will be in its optimum range when operated around 30-50% of its rated power.
Noise, distortion, efficiency are factors.
You don't need a 100 Watt amp if you only ever play at 10 or 15 Watts.
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