Discussing Tube 18W TMB and volume...

[keithb7]

I have a Ceriatone 18W TMB. Love it. I love the gain. Silly me, I bought a 4x12 Marshall 1960A cab for it. Again, it sounds amazing but darn, I am starting to realize it's just too loud for our stage volume. At rehearsal with a drummer, bass and other guitarist, I have it choked up real bad. I been cranking the pre-gain and then I choke it down with the master volume, thinking I'd be getting the most gain at a controllable level. Not so. I get some, but not enough gain like this. This bad boy needs to be at 50% on the MV with the gain at 50% or better, then yes, then we have achieved rock 'n roll.

I want the Marshall sound it gives up. I don't think I can really go smaller than an 18W and achieve the level of gain I want, still sounding Marshall-y, and staying tube. I fear the next move is to get back out of the 4x12 cab. I have a 2x12 Bandmaster cab, maybe I better try that. Maybe I should set the 1960A cab to stereo and only run 2 speakers? Maybe I should consider a 1x12 cab with an inefficient speaker? I am not really into an attenuator. I am leaning toward the 1x12 option. Maybe even 1x10?

I have a few 5W tube amps. Not enough volume. The 12W 5E3 clone was good but too much for at home, and not quite the Marshall-y gain I wanted on stage.

What the heck is wrong with us old guys? 18W too much... Despicable!

Discuss....

 

[vanr]

Try a pair of JJ EL844's. That will knock the power down 5 or 6 watts.

 

[marshman]

It's the speakers that are too much. You definitely want less of 'that'. A single, efficient 1x12 speaker (anything in the 100dB range) should yield tones like you seem to be after at a more practical volume. My lite IIb has an Eminence Wizard in it and it gives me great clean & grind tones at the twirl of a volume knob. Make no mistake, there's not a whole lot of clean with my LP, but with my tele I get great headroom and volume with my MIM tele. If memory serves, the Lite IIb variant is not as high-gain as the TMBs, but in general it should still apply.

I guess you could just disconnect a pair of the 12"s, but that seems like a lot of weight to be carrying around to only be using half of it.

There were a few 2x10 combos of the original Marshall 18 watt run, and I would think that with a pair of Celestion Gold 10" or 10" Greenbacks it would be pretty close to awesome. And I'm almost certain I've read that plenty of folks have safely used Celestion Blues in 1x12 rigs with 18 watters (ask Johnny Crash, he might be one of 'em).

Good Luck

 

[keithb7]

Thx for the insight. I found a used Avatar 1x12 British style cab used. It would look great with my Ceriatone amp in it's Marshall style head. I would have to run a 4 ohm speaker in there as I a/b a '64 Bandmaster with it live for cleans and tremolo.

I also like the 2x10 option. That may be great. I have always though about building my own cab. That might be a good option. Will follow up with comments once I try a few things. Thx.

 

[Lunchie]

Yeah, when I bought my ceriatone jubilee saturday, the shop owner was pushing that same cab hard. It sounded great in the large room but I knew as soon as I got it home it would wake up the dead. I had a Marshall stack and at 1.5 it was shaking the house

The Jubilee clone is a 2550 so I have it switched to 25 and playing out a 112 cab and I can get some sweet gain without making mine or my neighbors ears bleed. I think that will work out great, and you could always get a second 112 if you needed to.

 

[jjkrause84]

It's the speakers that are too much.

Exactly. Pare it down to a single Greenback and you're good to go.

 

[keithb7]

Last Sat I played a smaller pub gig with my 18W head and my 2x12 Bandmaster cab. It has Jensen Re-issue C12N speakers in it. Sensitivity on those is 98.4 dbl. There was no way I could get the amp into it's sweet spot and keep a sane stage volume. 18W head never got past 1.5 on the master volume. Yesterday I sold my 4x12 1960A Marshall cab. I have located a Avatar Vintage Custom G112 1x12 cab, unloaded. This is my next trial with the 18W head. Now I need to settle in on a speaker. I am thinking WGS. Maybe an ET65. Any experience out there with WGS speakers? Thx, Keith

 

[Shango66]

Ive tried the same type of amp w a single Greenback with good results....

 

[jefrs]

It is hardly surprising that a stage amp is rather loud.
The 17W WEM Dominator is/was known as the "mini-Marshall" but (strangely) not so the 18W Marshall (the copy), because of its ease of imitating a 100W Marshall stack in studio.
The WEM was a larger combo box than the Marshall. It's a 1x12 about the size of a 4x10. The Dominator is the louder of the two by a good margin. You will have heard one or two on records but I don't think they went left-pond (240-250VAC).

You do need a Greenback in there to do it. You need its fairly lush sound and the bottom-end of the bigger open-back box. Celestion speakers have a characteristic "thump" when you dig in, the sound associated with Marshall cabs.

 

[keithb7]

I did mention it above, I do run 2 heads into one cab. I have a Radial Head Bone tube amp head switcher that puts a dummy load on the amp not being used. I run a 1964 Bandmaster which is 40W tube, and the Ceriatone 18W tube TMB. I play in a cover band and these 2 heads give me tons of options. I use the Bandmaster head for cleans and tremolo work. 18W head for distortion and harder rock. I figure the WGS ET65 speaker rated at 65W should have no trouble handling either head. If I go with the Greenback as suggested, rated at 25W, what risk is there when using my 40W bandmaster head with it? I don't turn the Bandmaster up for break up, just cleans. I wonder if I am putting out enough power to damage the Greenback?


The Avatar G112 is a 24" wide cabinet. Semi-closed back. It seems larger to me than many 1x12 cabs I have found. I suspect this cab should deliver nice bottom end. Here is a photo of it with a 1x12 in it.

image removed

Any comments appreciated. Thanks, Keith.

 

[Shango66]

Thats a nice lookin cab.
I guess its better to be on the safe side and not pump 40w into a 25w rated speaker.
A "greenback" voiced speaker that can handle the wattage you have would be my choice

 

[Telenut62]

Good speakers.....you may find the speaker blog helpful...

http://wgs4.com/blogs/vaughn

 

[keithb7]

Thanks Shango66, your thoughts are along the same as mine. I think the WGS ET65, which is modeled after the Celestion G12-65, is what I'll try in this cab. Here is the front, it should match my 18W Marshall style cab nicely. I'll post an update once I get everything together and assembled for a gig.

image removed

 

[bbutler356]

Last Sat I played a smaller pub gig with my 18W head and my 2x12 Bandmaster cab. It has Jensen Re-issue C12N speakers in it. Sensitivity on those is 98.4 dbl. There was no way I could get the amp into it's sweet spot and keep a sane stage volume. 18W head never got past 1.5 on the master volume. Yesterday I sold my 4x12 1960A Marshall cab. I have located a Avatar Vintage Custom G112 1x12 cab, unloaded. This is my next trial with the 18W head. Now I need to settle in on a speaker. I am thinking WGS. Maybe an ET65. Any experience out there with WGS speakers? Thx, Keith

Lower sensitivity is very important. A Greenback is only 96 and that's pretty good and low. One of those is about the best you're going to get for good tone and low volume, I think.

 

[homesick345]

 

[vanr]

WGS has the 50-watt Invader which is supposed to be a higher watt Greenback. Also the Liberator which is a higher wattage improved ET-65.

 

[jefrs]

I did mention it above, I do run 2 heads into one cab. I have a Radial Head Bone tube amp head switcher that puts a dummy load on the amp not being used. I run a 1964 Bandmaster which is 40W tube, and the Ceriatone 18W tube TMB. I play in a cover band and these 2 heads give me tons of options. I use the Bandmaster head for cleans and tremolo work. 18W head for distortion and harder rock. I figure the WGS ET65 speaker rated at 65W should have no trouble handling either head. If I go with the Greenback as suggested, rated at 25W, what risk is there when using my 40W bandmaster head with it? I don't turn the Bandmaster up for break up, just cleans. I wonder if I am putting out enough power to damage the Greenback?


The Avatar G112 is a 24" wide cabinet. Semi-closed back. It seems larger to me than many 1x12 cabs I have found. I suspect this cab should deliver nice bottom end. Here is a photo of it with a 1x12 in it.

image removed

Any comments appreciated. Thanks, Keith.

That is a Vintage30, it is a 60 watt speaker intended for high sound volume in a closed ext cab as sound reinforcement. It can be a wee bit harsh sounding at low volume (18W) or in an open cab. Some folks like it for everything but it was not designed to be the primary speaker.

There are basically two high power "Greenback types", the G12T-65/75 (Marshall cab thump again) and the new 65 watt Creamback.

No, a single 25 watt G12M-25 Greenback will not take a Bassman's 40W -
but mine has a pair of them

 

[Fatknuckle]

Weber Legacy speakers, 65-w each. Very Greenbackish. Come in 10's or 12's. I run a 36watt ceriatone-design into 2x10 75hz speakers (two 8s for a 4-ohm load). Once they broke in, they sounded really nice.

 

[keithb7]

Today I pulled the pin and ordered a WGS ET65. Modeled after the Celestion G12-65. 65W rating,98.02db sensitivity. I went with 4 ohm so I can A/B my Bandmaster and Ceriatone heads as mentioned above. I will be putting it in the Avatar G112 cab similar to one above.

Fatknucle I also seriously considered the Weber Legacy. I like how you can choose your magnet weight, ohm load, hz, and watt rating. I do own Weber speakers now in other amps. I have wanted to try WGS, so this time I went for it.

 

[keithb7]

Just a quick update. I arrived home with my Avatar 1x12 cab today. I quickly removed the 16 ohm Celestion Vintage 30 in there and installed a WGS 4 ohm ET-65. I burned down to rehearsal space and hooked it up to my amp heads. Turned on and....Ahhh. Relief. Yes! It seems I can turn up the volume dial on my 18W, and also my Bandmaster, and get some some real sane volume levels. I have never played my Bandmaster past 2 with the its matching stock 2x12 cab. This 1x12 really cut the volume down, really. I can play it on 5! It seems like I can run my 18W right in the money zone and it is great too. Not too loud. I was playing alone and did not have the band, but I can tell. Way better suited to my needs. This is most excellent. I look forward to next our next practice and gig!

The ET-65 right off the bat, seemed warmer. What a great sounding cab and speaker combo.

Here is my live rig as of now. That is the Radial Headbone on the floor to the right. It allows me to swap 2 tube heads into one cab on the fly live.

image removed