Digital amps are copycats

[chemobrain]

Ah, remember when life was simple and a great tone was a Gibson ES 175 plugged straight into a polytone amp and there was the 8,000-page fake book to spend a lonely winters night with.
Times were slower softer paced and richly melodic in a Be-Bop sort of way.
"Those were the good ol' days" chemobrain said sarcastically
http://valdez.dumarsengraving.com/557JazzStandards.PDF

 

[charlie chitlin]

Don't sell! I have a similar awesome amp and there's no money that would give me the feeling I get at a gig when I turn around and see it.

 

[raito]

Not quoting because that's long. As is this.

So, '0 maintenance'. Except for... maintenance. Got it. That a task is easy doesn't amake it not maintenance. Though I would dearly lvoe to see a full disassembly and reassembly of a tonewheel organ, including solder joints, in a day and a half. But since out definition of maintenance differs so much, out definition of 'full' and 'disassemble' probably differ, too. The people I've followed doing it seem to take a lot longer than that.

I completely dispute the idea that a digital Hammond won't remain in working order for 50 years. Besides the fact that there's lots of digital circuits that have run for that long. There's DX7's out there from 1983 that have never been rebuilt and run just fine. There's no reason to think that they'll fall apart in 20 years. On the other hand, I do wonder how many of the existing tonewheel organs have never been rebuilt, and especially wonder how many that is out of how many that were manufactured.

I do not see mechanical devices that last for 100 years without at least partial rebuilding. Certainly not ones in anything resembling continuous use. Please find one for me. Mechanical parts wear.

As for 'impossible', I say that's bunk. If it was done once, it can be done again. Period.

That's where defining terms can be very useful.

Repairable is a continuum where the space is defined by money, time, and expertise. And the value at any point is whether it's worth it. Not whether it's possible, because it's always possible.

I'm always amused by the statement that digital is impossible to repair. Someone should tell that to all the guys who DO repair digitial electronics when they need repairing. Maybe you don't have the expertise. But someone does. Maybe you don't have the time. But someone does. Maybe you don't have the money. But someone does. Whether it's worth it or not is up to the person needing the repair.

One example are the MOSTEK top octave chips. They've been out of production for decades. But there's been replacements made. Heck, if I wanted to match input, output, and supply voltages (and easy thing to do) I have an FPGA board connected to the computer that I'm writing this on that is doing the job right now. Incidentally, it's not the chip that's the problem, it's the crystal that has a resonant frequency that handily divides down to tractable musical frequencies that's the hard part to replace. And even that can be done, if you have expertise.

The Juno-106 is notorious for having it's epoxy-potted modules go south. Analogue Renaissance reverse-engineered them and produces them.

Even the so-called 'custom' ICs can be replaced, for a price. There's boutique foundries out there who will make whatever you want, if you just tell them what it is. And if you know what it does, you can replace it.

Even processors can be replaced. Even processors that don't exist any more.

Again, it's time, money, and expertise. Can some electronics not be replaired with the usual soldering iron? Sure. But that doesn't make it not repairable.

As for tube amps, sure, you can buy new tubes today. Mostly because non-USA companies bought up all the economically obsolete equipment to manufacture them. Wasn't it about 25 years or so ago when tube guys were sweating the supply, because the manufacturers were drying up? What's going to happen to those manufacturers in 100 years? Will anyone retain the expertise to make a vacuum tube (besides that French guy custom-making tubes for WWI submarine equipment)?

As for amps, themselves, you've moved the goalposts, which is poor form in a conversation. First, you assert that digital can do nothing that analog can't (a fallacy). Then you change the tune to there's nothing of interest it can do. Of interest? To whom? I assure you, I am interested in sounds beyond what analog can supply.

And if you won't buy another Mac, you wouldn't want to buy another PC, either. But my definition of swapping a mother board isn't repair any more than putting a whole new chassis full of parts into a tube amp is.

As for the right to repair, I don't think you're holding the conventional meaning. Which deals with whether or not it is legal to repair something. Not whether it is possible.

And now, the dirty little secret. Nothing is digital. All circuits are analog. One way or another. And there are many who forget that at their peril, as I have personally seen. (I went to college specifically to become a chip designer, and had to learn the very analog physics behind the digital. Many did not, and failed to complete their classes.)

At most, what is called digital is an interpretation of various electronic signals. Nor is there anything digital cannot do that analog does, subject to Shannon-Nyquist and uniform sampling. A particular product may not do so, which is not the same thing at all. But there are some things that analog cannot do that what we call digital can do. Analog always trades off. You cannot have infinite gain. You cannot have arbitrary gain without distortion (or noise). You can compensate, but never eliminate.

Then again, there's things that neither can do. Neither can implement an ideal filter (except the degenerate case of a no-pass filter), either in frequency response, nor in phase response). At least, not in real time, and analog probably can't do it as a post-process, though I'm not sure.

None of the above should be taken as a value judgement for any particular technology. AS was said, sounds good is good. And how the sound is made doesn't matter.

Discussions of which part of the expertise/time/money space are worthwhile are a different discussion.

Still, what I'd really like to see is digital emulations of amps and cabs that cannot exist in the physical world.

 

[bparnell57]

I understand that specific phase relationships and other things cannot exist in the analog realm. I understand digit circuits are at each bit analog. Ever look inside a HP tube driven digital frequency counter? Now that's a piece of solid engineering.

I would hope that I understand signal processing. I'm an electrical engineering student.

There is nothing within perceivable sonic difference or reason that cannot be done to a guitar signal that cannot be done using analog circuits. Name an example.

Oh, mechanical things working after 100 years with no maintenance? My best example would be Dutch windmills and parts of hydroelectric dams, besides turbines. Large, irreplaceable components.

Lubrication isn't a repair.

Also, I do not mean a frame off restoration of a Hammond. Sorry to clarify. I mean a simple reconditioning. Enough to keep it running another 50 years with lubrication. I know of hammonds that have never even had a replaced tube still running every week at some southern baptist church's.

As processing power becomes cheap, digital resolution improves.

You still cannot model every aspect of what occurs in an analog circuit.

Additionally, digital isn't perfect either.

Right to repair means you can get parts of and the device will not reject them.

Replace the touch ID fingerprint sensor on an iPhone 6 and the phone with be bricked the next software update. That's an example.

Proprietary extinct IC's mean that it will cost more to repair the item than it is worth, or more than it would cost for a suitable replacement. Thus we have a disposable economy.

I know for a fact that with NOS Ceramic silver contact Mil Spec cinch sockets, metal film resistors, premium industrial grade NOS tubes, film filter and bypass caps, Teflon insulated wire, stainless hardware, and Epoxy potted transformers, that a brand new tube amp built with my own hands, designed to run tubes under their maximum operating specs, can easily go 100 years without repair or maintenance with daily usage, besides factoring in excessive physical shock.

The speaker will likely become brittle or sag and get voice coil rub before the circuit stops working. Then the pilot light will burn out. Then a tube filament. So on and so forth.

If you left the amp on with minimal cathode current, but not so little as to cause cathode poisoning, it would likely last 200 years.

Happens to be that I build my amps with those specs, and it's easy to do so.

Tube amps are more easily repairable. If you're worried about limited supply of tubes, which will eventually become an issue as tube amps lose popularity and tube factories shut down, just stock up and run your amps at recommended operation points. Easy. Sadly not easy enough for Leo to get right.

 

[Fiesta Red]

"Many devices" and REBOOT to fix? Huh? Which devices and since when are they fixable by rebooting?

Personal Experiences:

Peavey Delta Stomp multi-effect pedal.
Intermittent but often digital artifact popped up during live performances. Bypassing it turned off the effect, but the artifact would be there if you re-engaged the pedal.
The only way to fix it was to remove it from the power supply, count to ten and re-plug the power supply...rebooting the system.
Sold it after one too many performances marred by it.

Line 6 POD V1
intermittent but seldom digital artifact popped up during recording and live performances.
Again, the only way to fix it was to remove it from the power supply, count to ten and re-plug the power supply...rebooting the system.
I still use it for recording.

Similar experience with a POD v2 belonging to a bandmate.

Same thing happened with another bandmate's Line 6 Duoverb combo amp (great sounding amp, BTW...when it didn't flake out and have to be unplugged).

Same thing happened with a Digitech Crossroads Eric Clapton pedal.

The only digital device I haven't had this experience with is my Boss RT20 Rotary Ensemble. I don't know if they "fixed" it or if I've just been fortunate, but either way I'm happy.

If you've never had this experience, good for you...but you don't have to get upset because I voiced my opinion--which was mostly positive about digital devices.

As far as "fixing" by rebooting, I was referring only to digital artifact--not repairing the device in case of component failure...that was my main criticism of digital amps, pedals, etc.; they (generally) can't be fixed/repaired.

 

[Fiesta Red]

1: Smashed, dropped (hard), crushed...yes... but one shouldn't treat any gear like that. Most digital gear is very susceptible to power... and just like amps, the older the unit - it needs new filter caps. I can't tell you how many products I have resurrected by simply replacing $2 worth of filter caps in a unit.

2: Monitoring is extremely important on digital gear.... and often overlooked. You are talking about Mustangs, Line Six amps, PV Vypers and others.... I like to take full advantage of digital gear and go FRFR.... either through stage or studio monitors, or through a dedicated FRFR cabinet. That is an entirely new discussion.

3: (BONUS COMPLAINT) I have never had that problem with any of my modelers. I don't think I have lost a single stage minute because of a failing (or acting up) modeler. I've lost a few due to mis-management on my end (ie: lost in a pile of patches), but that's on me not the modeler.

Again, I was speaking catastrophic failure and dealing with digital artifact...two things I've never had to deal with on my analog tube and solid-state amps.

I don't dislike digital amps or effects. I have just had some personal experiences that lead me to the conclusion that they won't be as durable or repairable (or as economically feasible to repair) as my tube amps which are ~50, 27 and ~18(?) years old and my solid state amps which are 44 and ~20 years old.

 

[Frodebro]

BONUS COMPLAINT!
Many devices still have a tendency to throw some digital artifact into the signal, and the only way to correct it is to reboot the device. That's irritating during rehearsal, infuriating during recording and downright horrible during live performances..."Hey, excuse me--I know you're rockin' and want us to finish the song we just started, but I have to reboot my amp!“

Nothing is going to be 100% perfectly reliable, but I think I'd rather have to deal with a quick reboot than a tube amp that goes down when a tube goes south and takes out other components with it (been there). Can't fix that onstage with a reboot! Heck, even identifying and swapping out a bad tube takes more time than rebooting a digital unit.

 

[JCW308]

Personal Experiences:

Peavey Delta Stomp multi-effect pedal.
Intermittent but often digital artifact popped up during live performances. Bypassing it turned off the effect, but the artifact would be there if you re-engaged the pedal.
The only way to fix it was to remove it from the power supply, count to ten and re-plug the power supply...rebooting the system.
Sold it after one too many performances marred by it.

Line 6 POD V1
intermittent but seldom digital artifact popped up during recording and live performances.
Again, the only way to fix it was to remove it from the power supply, count to ten and re-plug the power supply...rebooting the system.
I still use it for recording.

Similar experience with a POD v2 belonging to a bandmate.

Same thing happened with another bandmate's Line 6 Duoverb combo amp (great sounding amp, BTW...when it didn't flake out and have to be unplugged).

Same thing happened with a Digitech Crossroads Eric Clapton pedal.

The only digital device I haven't had this experience with is my Boss RT20 Rotary Ensemble. I don't know if they "fixed" it or if I've just been fortunate, but either way I'm happy.

If you've never had this experience, good for you...but you don't have to get upset because I voiced my opinion--which was mostly positive about digital devices.

As far as "fixing" by rebooting, I was referring only to digital artifact--not repairing the device in case of component failure...that was my main criticism of digital amps, pedals, etc.; they (generally) can't be fixed/repaired.

OK these are all LAST CENTURY items so what's your point about DIGITAL MODELING AMPS?

 

[rogb]

And nobody buys product and settles for MP3. Play guitar thru your phone. It's a slippery slope. If you're in a cover band, the audience is beyond clueless and trying to get laid, or survive the wedding. Digital is made for this kinda work.

Just letting you know, I'm stealing this classic gem, thank you

 

[Tremade]

 

[rogb]

Modeling amps, solid state amps, or original tube amps, whatever turns your crank. If it excites you and makes you want to play guitar more, with vigor, it's all good.

There is no wright or wrong. Knock yourself out. It's your hard earned money, spend a little on what brings you joy.

Me? Tube amps. Mostly.
Love 'em or hate 'em, I fret not. What you do is your business. Come to my house you'll be sampling Tweed, Brown, Blonde, Blackface and Siverface varieties. I'd love to come to your house and try a Kemper. I'd be extremely surprised if there is 1 Kemper in my town. Never seen one yet.

Keith, I spent a little time at the studio playing a Kemper (mostly Trainwreck profile) into a 2x12 cab via an EHX Magnum 44 amp pedal. No toobs in that setup and it sounded really good, surprisingly good. I can see if you know what you're doing you could wring out a terrific live sound and if touring internationally, save a fortune on cartage!

When I went back to the studio to record and my own cash was paying for the time, I had no hesitation and plugged straight into the Marshall, cranked it to trouser flapping and there was the sound, right there in a couple of minutes.
I could afford to buy one, nearly did buy a Helix but... I know all about software/hardware redundancy and for most folks, expensive cutting-edge fast-changing tech is just not needed for what we want to achieve.

 

[raito]

I understand that specific phase relationships and other things cannot exist in the analog realm. I understand digit circuits are at each bit analog. Ever look inside a HP tube driven digital frequency counter? Now that's a piece of solid engineering.

As a matter of act, yes, I have. And I agree on the solid engineering of HP products for a large part of that company's lifespan.

I would hope that I understand signal processing. I'm an electrical engineering student.

Good. Then what I've been saying is comprehensible to you. Though being an EE student is no guarantee. You might not have gotten to those classes yet. And I'm not sure that signal processing is mandatory for all subspecies of EE (do the power transmission guys have to take that?)

I was an EE student at one time, doubling in CS because I wanted to design chips, specifically processors. That career route didn't work out for various reasons, which is fine. That field ended up morphing into something I wouldn't find all that interesting (for most of the applications), or very difficult to get a job in (no need for too many people).

There is nothing within perceivable sonic difference or reason that cannot be done to a guitar signal that cannot be done using analog circuits. Name an example.

Discontinuities in the functions. Though your counter-argument might essentially read as defining arbitrary analog computers. And my counter to that would be arbitrary precision.

Oh, mechanical things working after 100 years with no maintenance? My best example would be Dutch windmills and parts of hydroelectric dams, besides turbines. Large, irreplaceable components.

Lubrication isn't a repair.

You go off the rails a bit here. I say rebuilding, and you mention repair. While lubrication is not repair, as you correctly state, neither is rebuilding. And if my memory of the windmill (built after the Dutch fashion) in Holland, MI is correct, they rebuild the wooden crown gears every several years, at least they replace the pegs. They wear. Because they're mechanical.

Hydro dams I'm less sure of, in general. On the one hand, I haven't found one in continuous operation for 100 years without expansion or other modification (so we can't say it would have lasted for 100 years as it was), and my inclination to discount things without moving parts as mechanical. Though I suppose there's mechanical parts on hydro dams that aren't the turbines, like the gating and such.

Also, I do not mean a frame off restoration of a Hammond. Sorry to clarify. I mean a simple reconditioning. Enough to keep it running another 50 years with lubrication. I know of hammonds that have never even had a replaced tube still running every week at some southern baptist church's.

Well, you did mention hundreds of solder points. I think you can understand why I thought as I did.

As processing power becomes cheap, digital resolution improves.

You still cannot model every aspect of what occurs in an analog circuit.

Why not? Your turn to provide an example.

Additionally, digital isn't perfect either.

I'd be just about the last guy to assert that.

Right to repair means you can get parts of and the device will not reject them.

That's an interesting definition, and not the one that's usually used, which involve legal rights.

Replace the touch ID fingerprint sensor on an iPhone 6 and the phone with be bricked the next software update. That's an example.

Then the replacement part was insufficiently compatible. Much like putting the wrong component in an analog circuit.

Proprietary extinct IC's mean that it will cost more to repair the item than it is worth, or more than it would cost for a suitable replacement. Thus we have a disposable economy.

Worth is relative, and neither of us can say what something is worth to some arbitrary person. That's part of what my previous post was about. And something you may have encounters, and certainly should encounter, in your studies.

I know for a fact that with NOS Ceramic silver contact Mil Spec cinch sockets, metal film resistors, premium industrial grade NOS tubes, film filter and bypass caps, Teflon insulated wire, stainless hardware, and Epoxy potted transformers, that a brand new tube amp built with my own hands, designed to run tubes under their maximum operating specs, can easily go 100 years without repair or maintenance with daily usage, besides factoring in excessive physical shock.

It is not a fact. It is a statistical possibility. This is something which you should, again, encounter in your studies. No device can be 100% guaranteed to work for any length of time. MTBF and all.

I imagine you're considering the thermal environment in 'operating specs'? If so, then you should include the shock environment, too. The last company I worked for did.

Again, I'd be very interested in figures about Hammonds and tube amps as to how many were manufactured and how many remain in service. And particularly how many got junked because they developed a fault.

The speaker will likely become brittle or sag and get voice coil rub before the circuit stops working. Then the pilot light will burn out. Then a tube filament. So on and so forth.

Would you classify that as maintenance, or repair? It might depend on timeframe, right?. Filaments burn out eventually. But broadly, if it burns out the first day, fixing it is a repair. If it happens after 10 years, it's maintenance. If after 100, it's a miracle.

If you left the amp on with minimal cathode current, but not so little as to cause cathode poisoning, it would likely last 200 years.

Happens to be that I build my amps with those specs, and it's easy to do so.

I'd love to see your calculations of that, but in general, I agree. It could. Whether it does or not depends on the individual unit. Again, MTBF.

Tube amps are more easily repairable. If you're worried about limited supply of tubes, which will eventually become an issue as tube amps lose popularity and tube factories shut down, just stock up and run your amps at recommended operation points. Easy. Sadly not easy enough for Leo to get right.

As I said above, there was a scare a couple decades ago. But there's a lot of Russian tube equipment of all sorts still around, and the Chinese got interested in supplying the rest of the world's vintage market, and bought up all the equipment. But those economies are turning, too, and I don't know when it'll go from being profitable at the current level to having the prices rise to a new level rapidly because the supply will go down dramatically because there's more profits elsewhere.

And yeah, part of the problem with people thinking that the non-ideal (from an EE standpoint) aspects of tube designs sound 'good' (because it's always a subjective judgement) is that the amps tend to get designed to emphasise those aspects. Which very often leads to designs with shorter MTBF. And people don't mind, because they're getting the results they like, except when the time comes to pay the piper.

 

[Fiesta Red]

OK these are all LAST CENTURY items so what's your point about DIGITAL MODELING AMPS?

It appears that this is beginning to turn into an argument.

I don't come here to argue. I have left other forums because people just wanted to argue. I don't want to leave this forum, because for the most part, everyone has respect for other people's opinions, whether they agree or not.

I ask you to respect my experiences and my opinions, just as I respect yours.

I'll leave this subject by repeating what I've said both on this thread and others. I don't care if you use a vintage tube amp, a modern tube amp, a hybrid amp, a solid state amp, a digital amp or a combination of any and/or all of them...

If it sounds good, it is good.
​

Good vibes to you.

 

[Fiesta Red]

Nothing is going to be 100% perfectly reliable, but I think I'd rather have to deal with a quick reboot than a tube amp that goes down when a tube goes south and takes out other components with it (been there). Can't fix that onstage with a reboot! Heck, even identifying and swapping out a bad tube takes more time than rebooting a digital unit.

I said this to another poster here, but I have the same response to you.

It appears that this is beginning to turn into an argument.

I don't come here to argue. I have left other forums because people just wanted to argue. I don't want to leave this forum, because for the most part, everyone has respect for other people's opinions, whether they agree or not.

I ask you to respect my experiences and my opinions, just as I respect yours.

I'll leave this subject by repeating what I've said both on this thread and others. I don't care if you use a vintage tube amp, a modern tube amp, a hybrid amp, a solid state amp, a digital amp or a combination of any and/or all of them...

If it sounds good, it is good.
​

Good vibes to you.

 

[MrGibbly]

This is a reason to not buy them. Also, they become obsolete like computers, immediately. The Kemper from 2 years ago, reveals its deficiencies compared to the newest model. I'd rather go to the source of tone, which was a happy accident to begin with. I suppose, cover bands might like digital, much as they go for all in one multi effects setups. There, I got that off my chest.

Different tools. I enjoy them both for different reasons. I'd rather have one of each than be "trapped" with only one or the other.

 

[codamedia]

It appears that this is beginning to turn into an argument.

For the sake of argument, all of these "tube vs digital" threads turn into arguments ...

 

[Fiesta Red]

For the sake of argument, all of these "tube vs digital" threads turn into arguments ...

That's ok, because this is something we're all passionate about (music/gear/etc.)...but to berate someone and challenge/taunt them to further prove their point is asinine.

I intensely dislike pointy-headed heavy metal/shredder guitars, but someone says, "I love them," Good for them! I'm not going to argue the point. I might state my (negative) experiences with such instruments, but I'm not going to try to convince the guy he's wrong.

I love my '63-reissue Vibroverb, but if someone says, "I don't like _______ about those amps," again, I won't argue with them...I might state my (positive) experiences with the amp, but the guy's welcome to his own opinion, whether I agree or not.

I've had some negative and positive experiences with digital devices. I still have a couple of those devices in my herd/arsenal; others I couldn't sell quick enough...to try to bully me into saying their opinion/experience/device is 100% right and my own opinion/experience/device is 100% wrong is stupid.

There are no absolutes in music...

Except Justin Bieber...

Justin Bieber absolutely sucks.

 

[Tremade]

@Fiesta Red : This whole thread was started to taunt a group of gear users.

 

[Frodebro]

@Fiesta Red : This whole thread was started to taunt a group of gear users.

Yes, it was, and that's what makes it so difficult to have a productive conversation about the pros and cons of various types of gear.

@Fiesta Red, I also have no desire for arguments, I'm just trying to keep everything balanced as far as presenting both sides of the coin. I have far more tube amps than I do digital units, but I have spent enough time with the latest technology that I feel qualified to speak up when I see inaccuracies presented as fact (and this definitely is not aimed at you, as you haven't made any such inaccurate claims).

 

[Endless Mike]

Tubes have soul, digital does not. A good ear can hear the digital breakup, it's not sweet like a tube amp. I use a solid state for practice, when I need to be quiet. You need to be inspired, tubes give you that little bit more than you put in.

I don't want breakup from tube amps either. So if you're using a tube amp for clean only, then it's a completely different ball game, and renders this argument at least partly moot.

Nothing has soul. That is merely a perception applied to subjective experience. There are countless examples of great, and even legendary guitar players using amps without soul. BB King, Jack Pearson, Allan Holdsworth just to name a few.