Difference between glossy and satin nitro cans?

[itsGiusto]

Most modern nitro spray can salesmen like Stewmac offer both satin and gloss versions. See https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-too...quer/colortone-nitrocellulose-guitar-lacquer/

However, from what I can tell, it seems to be the consensus that a satin nitro finish can be buffed/polished to be a gloss finish, and a gloss nitro finish can be lightly sanded into a satin finish. See https://www.tdpri.com/threads/going-from-satin-to-gloss-nitro-finish.847845/ and https://www.tdpri.com/threads/how-to-dull-gloss-nitro-to-a-aged-look.978847/

And from what I understand, if you want a finish to be glossy, you have no choice but to polish it heavily to get it there.

So then what's the difference between these satin and glossy nitro cans? Does it matter which you choose?

 

[NoTeleBob]

Most satin finishes I am familiar with contain a flattening agent that actually makes them less transparent. You generally have to stir up (or shake up) that agent to make them come out satin. If you were to open a can of a satin varnish / poly and use it as is you'd likely get a clear finish. (That is, not withstanding the issue of unmixed finish.)

If you polish a satin finish, you can bring it up to a reasonable shine in my experience. It's more subtle though because that flattening agent is still in the layers below.

A non-satin finish can always be made flat by scuffing on the surface. Scuffing doesn't mean that it has to be aggressive and you generally use a very fine abrasive to cause the scuffing and get to satin.

If you want a high gloss finish such as we see on many guitars, you'll want a gloss finish that is as clear as possible to start with.

My thoughts. See what others have to say.

 

[Wyatt]

The difference is the flattening agent — "flatteners" are clear, flake-like solids added to satin finishes. The flatteners land at random angles to give the finish a rough shape that doesn't reflect light evenly. Clear particles designed to randomize the top surface, limiting how much light is reflected back to you at any one time. If done right, they should be so evenly distributed, that they give a uniform, dull, satiny finish acorss the whole finish.

You don't want to sand stain finishes because you ruin the random orientation of the flatteners. You can buff out a satin finish to a relatively glossy finish, but it's more work, and those flatteners are always going to be preset in the clear coat. I'm not sure how they affect the "clearness" of the finish.

Horses for courses.

 

[itsGiusto]

Most satin finishes I am familiar with contain a flattening agent that actually makes them less transparent. You generally have to stir up (or shake up) that agent to make them come out satin. If you were to open a can of a satin varnish / poly and use it as is you'd likely get a clear finish. (That is, not withstanding the issue of unmixed finish.)

If you polish a satin finish, you can bring it up to a reasonable shine in my experience. It's more subtle though because that flattening agent is still in the layers below.

A non-satin finish can always be made flat by scuffing on the surface. Scuffing doesn't mean that it has to be aggressive and you generally use a very fine abrasive to cause the scuffing and get to satin.

If you want a high gloss finish such as we see on many guitars, you'll want a gloss finish that is as clear as possible to start with.

My thoughts. See what others have to say.

The difference is the flattening agent — "flatteners" are clear, flake-like solids added to satin finishes. The flatteners land at random angles to give the finish a rough shape that doesn't reflect light evenly. Clear particles designed to randomize the top surface, limiting how much light is reflected back to you at any one time. If done right they should be so evenly distributed, that they give a uniform, dull, satiny finish acorss the whole finish.

You don't want to sand stain finishes because you ruin the random orientation of the flatteners. You can buff out a satin finish to a relatively glossy finish, but it's more work, and those flatteners are always going to be preset in the clear coat. I'm not sure how they affect the "clearness" of the finish.

Horses for courses.

Very interesting. So my plan for getting a new (1-piece maple) neck right now is:

1. Get the Warmoth satin nitro finish (since I've wanted to try a nitro finish, and they don't seem to offer a gloss finish), and try to buff/polish it up to be at least somewhat glossy using either a drill-buffing wheel attachment, or a drill polishing pad attachment or else just by hand with some polishing compound.
2. Apply my own custom waterslide decal on the headstock, then spray over with more nitro (maybe I'll use stewmac's nitro can, or maybe a cheaper one from Amazon?). Use the instructions in this video to spray over the headstock area, then sand it and buff it out so you can't see the edges of the decal, and so it's at least somewhat glossy.


Are there any problems with this approach? If I did this, should I use the glossy or satin nitro can for the headstock? If I used the glossy one, would it look unnaturally disconnected from the rest of the neck?

 

[schmee]

Very interesting. So my plan for getting a new (1-piece maple) neck right now is:

1. Get the Warmoth satin nitro finish (since I've wanted to try a nitro finish, and they don't seem to offer a gloss finish), and try to buff/polish it up to be at least somewhat glossy using either a drill-buffing wheel attachment, or a drill polishing pad attachment or else just by hand with some polishing compound.
2. Apply my own custom waterslide decal on the headstock, then spray over with more nitro (maybe I'll use stewmac's nitro can, or maybe a cheaper one from Amazon?). Use the instructions in this video to spray over the headstock area, then sand it and buff it out so you can't see the edges of the decal, and so it's at least somewhat glossy.


Are there any problems with this approach? If I did this, should I use the glossy or satin nitro can for the headstock? If I used the glossy one, would it look unnaturally disconnected from the rest of the neck?

I'll say this; I've gotten the Warmoth poly gloss finish a number of times and it's superb. A bargain too for all the trouble a neck finish job is. I prefer it now.
My understanding of a satin finish is that it's a solvent added that flattens the finish. I had not heard of the "flakes" thing other than for UV blockers in various outdoor finishes. I didn't know that.

 

[Freeman Keller]

As others have said, satin or semi gloss lacquer has a flatten agent and yes, it can be buffed but not to a high gloss. With gloss lacquer if you level sand carefully as you build your thickness and if you are really good with your gun you actually don't have to wet sand and buff the last coat - but most of us aren't that good. I don't do any satin finishes and most of the time I can shoot one final very thinned flow coat that doesn't require much buffing.

You can also knock the gloss off of a gloss finish with a scotch bright pad or very fine steel wool.

I'm actually kind of surprised that Warmoth is offering lacquer, I remember an interview with Ken Warmoth where he said they only shoot poly. That might have just been bodies.

 

[Wyatt]

Are there any problems with this approach?

Problems I see with trying to buff out a Warmoth satin finish are the possibility of uneven gloss, and high probability to burn through the nitro, especially at the edges. Personally, I think you may creating new problems as you try to solve old ones.

Are there no pros you can hire to spray a nitro clear coat on?

I'm actually kind of surprised that Warmoth is offering lacquer, I remember an interview with Ken Warmoth where he said they only shoot poly. That might have just been bodies.

They use poly gloss or nitro satin. But the satin finish option wasn't added until 2016, four years after Ken retired. My guess is, like PRS, Warmoth saw a large enough market opening for compromise on nitro.

 

[itsGiusto]

Problems I see with trying to buff out a Warmoth satin finish are the possibility of uneven gloss, and high probability to burn through the nitro, especially at the edges. Personally, I think you may creating new problems as you try to solve old ones.

Are there no pros you can hire to spray a nitro clear coat on?



They use poly gloss or nitro satin. But the satin finish option wasn't added until 2016, four years after Ken retired. My guess is, like PRS, Warmoth saw a large enough market opening for compromise on nitro.

I'd rather learn myself than hire a pro to do this stuff. If you're saying I need to spray a nitro clear coat rather than buffing, then maybe I should just do that myself. Or, how can I ensure I don't burn through the nitro? If I did it by hand, would I be avoiding that chance?

 

[Freeman Keller]

I'd rather learn myself than hire a pro to do this stuff. If you're saying I need to spray a nitro clear coat rather than buffing, then maybe I should just do that myself. Or, how can I ensure I don't burn through the nitro? If I did it by hand, would I be avoiding that chance?

Nitrocellulose lacquer is one of the easier finishes to apply to a guitar. Maple will not need pore filling so you can start with a viny sealer or not. I shoot three coats of lacquer per day, sand to 320 between each group of three. Use a foam pad to back up the sand paper to avoid sanding thru edges. I'll shoot somewhere between 9 and 15 coats depending on the wood and how its building. The final coats get wet sanded starting at 1000 and going to 2000, then two grades of automobile polishing compound (without wax or silicon).

If I was going to put a decal on I would do it early in the process once I was satisfied with the level, then I would bury it in 6 or more coats.

Because of the way lacquer melts in to previous coats you can use rattle cans with good results, if you get a drip or run just sand it off and shoot some more. I have both a buffing wheel and foam pads in a drill motor - the pads work fine for this kind of work.

I've got lots of pictures of finishing things with lacquer - its all I use and I get very good results. I'm far from being a pro.

 

[itsGiusto]

Nitrocellulose lacquer is one of the easier finishes to apply to a guitar. Maple will not need pore filling so you can start with a viny sealer or not. I shoot three coats of lacquer per day, sand to 320 between each group of three. Use a foam pad to back up the sand paper to avoid sanding thru edges. I'll shoot somewhere between 9 and 15 coats depending on the wood and how its building. The final coats get wet sanded starting at 1000 and going to 2000, then two grades of automobile polishing compound (without wax or silicon).

If I was going to put a decal on I would do it early in the process once I was satisfied with the level, then I would bury it in 6 or more coats.

Because of the way lacquer melts in to previous coats you can use rattle cans with good results, if you get a drip or run just sand it off and shoot some more. I have both a buffing wheel and foam pads in a drill motor - the pads work fine for this kind of work.

I've got lots of pictures of finishing things with lacquer - its all I use and I get very good results. I'm far from being a pro.

Thanks, that's good to hear!

So you're suggesting I don't start with Warmoth's nitro finished neck, and instead just do it myself? The only thing I'm worried about with that is doing the fretboard. I don't know how well I'd be able to sand between frets. Also, I don't really know how to manage the frets and especially the nut. I guess I'd put painter's tape over the nut, but leave the frets exposed and scrape them off later?

 

[Timbresmith1]

I’ve told that the flatting agent in lacquers is frequently talc.
IME satin lacquer finishes are not as hard as gloss lacquers.

 

[Timbresmith1]

Thanks, that's good to hear!

So you're suggesting I don't start with Warmoth's nitro finished neck, and instead just do it myself? The only thing I'm worried about with that is doing the fretboard. I don't know how well I'd be able to sand between frets. Also, I don't really know how to manage the frets and especially the nut. I guess I'd put painter's tape over the nut, but leave the frets exposed and scrape them off later?

Sanding between frets is no big deal. Fold a small piece of wet-dry paper in half and use the folded edge to get up close to the fret. Sand perpendicular to the fret, and think “Scuff sanding” (leveling off the high spots/dust) vs aggressive sanding, so you don’t burn thru the finish.

 

[Powdog]

Just to add to the above helpful tips, don’t shoot rattle can lacquer when the ambient weather is cold and humid. When going from the high pressure can to the outside atmosphere, lacquer will spit large droplets in cold air. High humidity will fog/cloud your clear finish. Believe me, I’ve done it. Rattle cans work best when it’s warm and dry allowing the lacquer to atomize into tiny droplets.

Also, there ARE flattening agents in satin lacquer that will build up. So if you’re planning on a satin finish, shoot gloss coats first with only the last coat satin. My grandfather shot lacquer and I got that tip from him 50 years ago.

 

[Freeman Keller]

Thanks, that's good to hear!

So you're suggesting I don't start with Warmoth's nitro finished neck, and instead just do it myself? The only thing I'm worried about with that is doing the fretboard. I don't know how well I'd be able to sand between frets. Also, I don't really know how to manage the frets and especially the nut. I guess I'd put painter's tape over the nut, but leave the frets exposed and scrape them off later?

I believe I pointed you to a thread that I did on refretting a maple neck where I showed how I finished over the frets. I also said that its a big hassle and I probably wouldn't do it again.

Here is a maple Mighty Might neck that had a seal coat applied, I sanded that off and shot nitro as I always do. The guitar is kind of funky - the body is hundred year old barn wood, I did a little inlay in the head.

The other thing that I want to say loud and clear is that you should do all your experimenting and learning on scraps of the same kind of wood as your neck or body. Lacquer on maple is about as simple as it gets (as long as you aren't doing any staining) but you still should get it down before you commit to the real thing. If you are using rattle cans get the little nozzles that StewMac sells, warm the cans in water before you shoot. Wear a respirator, shoot outside or with good ventilation - you know the drill.

 

[itsGiusto]

I believe I pointed you to a thread that I did on refretting a maple neck where I showed how I finished over the frets. I also said that its a big hassle and I probably wouldn't do it again.

Yep, I looked over the thread. But I don't understand why it was a big hassle, what was the hassle about it? Just scraping the frets? Or was the hassle that you were starting with a refretting but then had to refinish it later because there were scratches?

Here is a maple Mighty Might neck that had a seal coat applied, I sanded that off and shot nitro as I always do. The guitar is kind of funky - the body is hundred year old barn wood, I did a little inlay in the head.

Do you have to sand off the sealer? I thought sealer is usually applied under the nitro coat.

 

[Freeman Keller]

Refetting a lacquered fretboard was a whole lot more work than a rosewood or ebony board. I understand why Leo did it , but he did a number of things that I think were kind of silly. At some point in the life of a fretboard the frets will need leveling, crowning and dressing. Your new neck may be perfect, I rarely see a neck that is.

I would not have done that neck if I didn't know it was lacquer. Many newer fender necks are catalyzed poly something - I can't repair those finishes and I've stopped trying. Its too bad, new finishes have lots going for them but they are hard for us technicians to work with.

As far as the Mighty Mite neck, I didn't know what was on it and prefer to use my own sealer. It was a simple matter to sand off the factory stuff and use what I was used to.

 

[Supertwang]

I’ve told that the flatting agent in lacquers is frequently talc.
IME satin lacquer finishes are not as hard as gloss lacquers.

It is also my experience that satin nitro lacquer from a spray bomb can is a Quick & Easy finish to apply. I clean the surface with 91% alcohol and knock down any raised grain with 0000 steel wool. Let alcohol evaporate for 30 minutes and shoot 3 light coats about 10 minutes apart and then leave it rest overnight,... then knock it down with 0000 steel wool. Then apply graphics and shoot 3 more light coats about 10 minutes apart and then let that rest overnight,...and knock it down with 0000 steel wool again. Rinse & repeat until satisfied. Lacquer drys very quickly,..almost as fast as it's laid down. Mind you the lacquer thinner in lacquer can eat into neighboring finishes and plastic parts so care is needed. The steel wool isn't the cleanest abrasive and darkens the surface unless you clean with a mild solvent after knocking down a surface with 0000,...I usually skip the solvent wipe downs because I like the darkening caused by the 0000 steel wool. Shopping list is: lacquer bomb, 0000 steel wool, 91% alcohol, polishing cloth, and maybe some lacquer safe masking tape.

 

[Timbresmith1]

It is also my experience that satin nitro lacquer from a spray bomb can is a Quick & Easy finish to apply. I clean the surface with 91% alcohol and knock down any raised grain with 0000 steel wool. Let alcohol evaporate for 30 minutes and shoot 3 light coats about 10 minutes apart and then leave it rest overnight,... then knock it down with 0000 steel wool. Then apply graphics and shoot 3 more light coats about 10 minutes apart and then let that rest overnight,...and knock it down with 0000 steel wool again. Rinse & repeat until satisfied. Lacquer drys very quickly,..almost as fast as it's laid down. Mind you the lacquer thinner in lacquer can eat into neighboring finishes and plastic parts so care is needed. The steel wool isn't the cleanest abrasive and darkens the surface unless you clean with a mild solvent after knocking down a surface with 0000,...I usually skip the solvent wipe downs because I like the darkening caused by the 0000 steel wool. Shopping list is: lacquer bomb, 0000 steel wool, 91% alcohol, polishing cloth, and maybe some lacquer safe masking tape.

I avoid steel wool in the finishing process. Also, around electric guitars, in general unless pickups are taped off

 

[Boreas]

Most modern nitro spray can salesmen like Stewmac offer both satin and gloss versions. See https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-too...quer/colortone-nitrocellulose-guitar-lacquer/

However, from what I can tell, it seems to be the consensus that a satin nitro finish can be buffed/polished to be a gloss finish, and a gloss nitro finish can be lightly sanded into a satin finish. See https://www.tdpri.com/threads/going-from-satin-to-gloss-nitro-finish.847845/ and https://www.tdpri.com/threads/how-to-dull-gloss-nitro-to-a-aged-look.978847/

And from what I understand, if you want a finish to be glossy, you have no choice but to polish it heavily to get it there.

So then what's the difference between these satin and glossy nitro cans? Does it matter which you choose?

There are several ways to do this. Personally, I would:

1. Buy the neck final-finished in gloss nitro

2. Make sure the finish is perfect - especially the headstock

3. Apply your decal

4. Mask all but front headstock

5. Overspray 6-10 coats of gloss nitro

6. Level/sand CAREFULLY around decal IF DESIRED. If it looks OK with minimal edge, LEAVE IT.

7. Spray another 10 coats of clear gloss (if you sanded in #6).

8. Sand/fix any imperfections

9. Overspray entire neck with SATIN nitro if desired, OR dull the existing gloss with paper or scratchy pad (harder to get even results).

I don't particularly like building a base or layering with satin. I prefer getting a good, gloss finish, then overspray with just a couple good coats of satin. Satin can hide application mistakes that you WANT to find (runs, peel, etc.). Then, a couple weeks after you complete the project, you notice a hair or a run DEEP in the finish. I find it easier to spot flaws in gloss between every coat or two. In addition, I just don't feel you get as good of an "optical depth" to the finish that you do with deep gloss oversprayed with satin. Yeah, you have to buy two cans, but suck it up.

But some people do not like the "deep" finish with the satin, but prefer the "thin" look that essentially looks like bare wood.

As everyone above mentions above, practice, and test your ideas first!

 

[itsGiusto]

There are several ways to do this. Personally, I would:

Thanks, I appreciate the precise instructions! In-line notes to follow:

1. Buy the neck final-finished in gloss nitro

Unfortunately neither Warmoth nor Musikraft offer a gloss-nitro option. Maybe there are other places that do, not sure. If you have suggestions, I'd be willing to look into them.

5. Overspray 6-10 coats of gloss nitro

What does overspray mean in this context?

9. Overspray entire neck with SATIN nitro if desired, OR dull the existing gloss with paper or scratchy pad (harder to get even results).

I'm actually looking for a gloss finish, not a satin one, so I'd just leave it glossy.