Definitely not at Tele. Help needed with Bağlama / Saz fret layout.

[epizootics]

Hi everyone,


I know this is a long shot but I dimly recall someone on this board talking about building a bağlama.

Long story short, a few years back I told my two brothers I would build them an instrument each for their 40th birthday. My older brother got a guitar two years ago. Now the younger of the two is turning 40 in September. He listens to a lot of Turkish music and I offered to build him a solid-body, short-neck saz / bağlama.

I have started making a CAD layout for the instrument. The actual shape is no big problem (I even found a way to use regular Kluson-type tuners!) but the fret placement is giving me fits. On the traditional bağlama, frets are not fixed and can be moved depending on the player's preferences since the actual fret layout used to vary quite a bit depending on geographical areas. I am planning to use regular frets for this build, and get a fretting template laser-cut for that purpose.

There is a lot of contradicting information on the internet about fret placement and the general tuning system of the instrument - some say it is based on the equal temperament, others say it is not. It seems to depend on the manufacturers. Since my brother would probably also want to use the instrument for non-Turkish music (ie. ignoring the 'quarter-tone' frets), we decided to go with the equal temperament. However, those 'quarter-tones' are not really quarter-tones, which really complicates things.

One of the more credible sources of information I found wrote this:

"All baglama makers have a table that contains measurement of frets. When we locate frets according to this table, we will have equal temperament 12 frets in one octave. If we tune well open strings with 440 Hz Tuner like guitar's open strings, all frets are ok in equal temperament, but as you can guess we need microtones so what will we do ? We can add lots of extra frets to baglama keyboard wherever we want, but on a normal baglama microtone frets's position is set. Having located equal temperament 12 frets in one octave, we change our tuner's calibration to 430 Hz and microtone frets are adjusted in 430 Hz. ( I refer 5 microtone frets that are approved on normal baglamas ). This method is very common and generally accepted. A baglama whose frets are adjusted under this method is ok for Turkish Folk Music Theory and globally accepted baglama fretboard."

(this is Sinan Cem Eroglu, from a discussion here: https://groups.google.com/g/mtonalist/c/0jTyQyBsRVc?pli=1 )

I can see how this would work if I were to place the frets using a digital tuner, but mathematics were never my forte (I can honestly say that I was absolutely terrible in school) and I can't think of a way to convert the notes I would get working from a 430 Hz to a measurement I could use for my template.

The scale length will be 27" with 20 frets - 14 of them being your regular semi-tones and the remaining 6 being placed between the 1st and 2nd, 3rd and 4th, 6th and 7th, 8th and 9th, and 11th and 12th other frets. From what I gathered it is a fairly typical arrangement for a short-scale saz.



Does anyone have any idea how to go about this?

 

[crazydave911]

The only person I know here that has experience with these is Nicktofen (if I spelled that right). He is Greek and was repairing one, I was interested and he emailed me plans. It however is the baglamadaki, very much shorter. If you think it might help I'll dig around in my archive for ya

Dave

 

[guitarbuilder]

You may want to contact @metecem and see if he can help. He hasn't been around for a while here though, although he checked in earlier this month.

 

[Seasicksailor]

I've never heard of a solid body baglama. So, it would only work amplified?

 

[tintag27]

I'd like to watch progress on that build if you can pin down the fretting. I was in Istanbul in 1969 in my final year at college and can still remember wandering down the narrow streets hearing sounds like this instrument spilling out of transistor radios from cafes and balconies... an amazing and friendly country then

 

[tanplastic]

Your avatar goes well with your name, OP.

 

[I_build_my_own]

The only person I know here that has experience with these is Nicktofen (if I spelled that right). He is Greek and was repairing one, I was interested and he emailed me plans. It however is the baglamadaki, very much shorter. If you think it might help I'll dig around in my archive for ya

Dave

I have notified the Greek authorities!!!

 

[AAT65]

Ignoring intonation, changing the reference from 440Hz to 430Hz would make the vibrating string length longer by a factor of 440/430 (= 1.023, where a true quarter tone factor is 1.029, a difference of about 0.6%).
So if you want a microtone fret between the 1st and 2nd you would measure from the bridge to the 2nd fret, multiply by 440/430 and set the “1.5” fret at that distance from the bridge.

 

[guitarbuilder]

Ignoring intonation, changing the reference from 440Hz to 430Hz would make the vibrating string length longer by a factor of 440/430 (= 1.023, where a true quarter tone factor is 1.029, a difference of about 0.6%).
So if you want a microtone fret between the 1st and 2nd you would measure from the bridge to the 2nd fret, multiply by 440/430 and set the “1.5” fret at that distance from the bridge.

The scale length stays the same. The waveform changes on the string length. You can tune a Gibson scale of 24.75 or a Fender scale of 25.5 both to 440 or 430. Scale length is defined by the nut to saddle locations that the string is contacting regardless of how long the physical string is from it's tuner to tailpiece. Maybe you mean something else? It sounds like the fret positions can change on these instruments between the nut and saddle to achieve different tones not normally found on a standard guitar with a diatonic scale...( I think that is what western music scales are based on).

At least in this example, the nut and bridge are in a fixed position.

 

[MojoTrwall]

Regarding quarter notes :

Turkish music being influenced by equal side of byzantine, greek, and arabica, you can find variation regarding what's gonna get played with the instrument I guess.

In islamic music which is an important part of traditional turkish music via ottoman empire, you'll get the Maqam harmony where you got quarter note which is a fondamental aspect of the thing.

But I suspect, kinda like in North Africa with Arabo-Andalous leading to Chaabi and North African mixed influences, that you got an other harmony existing due to other factual historic element tied to Turk History especially post WWi.

Wth Mustafa Kemal role in the creation of the country, and the evolution in the language, it's not that surprising to see a more occidentalized music theory, since there's a break with traditional ottoman conception.

 

[nickhofen]

Hi everyone,


I know this is a long shot but I dimly recall someone on this board talking about building a bağlama.

Long story short, a few years back I told my two brothers I would build them an instrument each for their 40th birthday. My older brother got a guitar two years ago. Now the younger of the two is turning 40 in September. He listens to a lot of Turkish music and I offered to build him a solid-body, short-neck saz / bağlama.

I have started making a CAD layout for the instrument. The actual shape is no big problem (I even found a way to use regular Kluson-type tuners!) but the fret placement is giving me fits. On the traditional bağlama, frets are not fixed and can be moved depending on the player's preferences since the actual fret layout used to vary quite a bit depending on geographical areas. I am planning to use regular frets for this build, and get a fretting template laser-cut for that purpose.

There is a lot of contradicting information on the internet about fret placement and the general tuning system of the instrument - some say it is based on the equal temperament, others say it is not. It seems to depend on the manufacturers. Since my brother would probably also want to use the instrument for non-Turkish music (ie. ignoring the 'quarter-tone' frets), we decided to go with the equal temperament. However, those 'quarter-tones' are not really quarter-tones, which really complicates things.

One of the more credible sources of information I found wrote this:

"All baglama makers have a table that contains measurement of frets. When we locate frets according to this table, we will have equal temperament 12 frets in one octave. If we tune well open strings with 440 Hz Tuner like guitar's open strings, all frets are ok in equal temperament, but as you can guess we need microtones so what will we do ? We can add lots of extra frets to baglama keyboard wherever we want, but on a normal baglama microtone frets's position is set. Having located equal temperament 12 frets in one octave, we change our tuner's calibration to 430 Hz and microtone frets are adjusted in 430 Hz. ( I refer 5 microtone frets that are approved on normal baglamas ). This method is very common and generally accepted. A baglama whose frets are adjusted under this method is ok for Turkish Folk Music Theory and globally accepted baglama fretboard."

(this is Sinan Cem Eroglu, from a discussion here: https://groups.google.com/g/mtonalist/c/0jTyQyBsRVc?pli=1 )

I can see how this would work if I were to place the frets using a digital tuner, but mathematics were never my forte (I can honestly say that I was absolutely terrible in school) and I can't think of a way to convert the notes I would get working from a 430 Hz to a measurement I could use for my template.

The scale length will be 27" with 20 frets - 14 of them being your regular semi-tones and the remaining 6 being placed between the 1st and 2nd, 3rd and 4th, 6th and 7th, 8th and 9th, and 11th and 12th other frets. From what I gathered it is a fairly typical arrangement for a short-scale saz.



Does anyone have any idea how to go about this?

At this table you will find the info you need to build your sazi.
As you can see there are different lengths and number of frets,you can use the spacing that suits you the most.

 

[metecem]

So I'll make it easier for everybody:

You can calculate fret locations using this page (use centimeters):
https://www.turkuler.com/5/5.asp

After calculating the locations, the left hand side is the short scale baglama and the right hand side the long scale one.

For whatever it is worth, I designed this one (using one of my own body shapes) for a musician of turkish heritage in Cologne.

 

[metecem]

if you really wanna get techy, I'd recommend articles writtenn by Tolgahan Cogulu (in English):
http://tolgahancogulu.com/writings/

 

[epizootics]

Gee, thank you so much guys, you're all amazing.

I've never heard of a solid body baglama. So, it would only work amplified?

I have seen one such instrument on Youtube - it was built by a British luthier in collaboration with a saz player and it looked pretty cool. I am thinking of making this one a bit less traditional by incorporating a recessed stainless steel pickguard a la Vox Teardrop, which, after all, has a lot in common with the baglama visually speaking!

Your avatar goes well with your name, OP.

Haha. You might be the first one on this board to pick that up. I am a huge Scott Walker fan, as one would assume

At this table you will find the info you need to build your sazi.
As you can see there are different lengths and number of frets,you can use the spacing that suits you the most.

Thanks! It seems like the Greek saz is a bit of a different beast - no quarter tones. Is it tuned in a non-equal temperament? If so, I'll make sure I keep those charts for the next time I have to build something out of our modern European division of the octave...

So I'll make it easier for everybody:

You can calculate fret locations using this page (use centimeters):
https://www.turkuler.com/5/5.asp

After calculating the locations, the left hand side is the short scale baglama and the right hand side the long scale one.

For whatever it is worth, I designed this one (using one of my own body shapes) for a musician of turkish heritage in Cologne.




View attachment 850207

...wow. I can't thank you enough for this. There is no way I would have found this, Turkish being the European language I am the least familiar with. This is absolutely freaking awesome. You probably saved me from a math-induced meltdown.

That is a really cool shape, too. Did you ever get around to building it? It seems you went for a guitar-type six-string arrangement here, too. I thought about doing that too (my brother is a guitar player) but he really likes the sound of doubled strings.


If anyone is interested, I can share the CAD file I'll be making for the fretting template!

Thanks again y'all. I'll post more stuff when I get started on the actual build!

 

[tanplastic]

Haha. You might be the first one on this board to pick that up. I am a huge Scott Walker fan, as one would assume

I was surprised to see a Scott reference here, big fan as well.

 

[epizootics]

I was surprised to see a Scott reference here, big fan as well.

It actually makes sense though - the last time we saw him wielding a guitar on stage...it was a Telecaster

 

[metecem]

...wow. I can't thank you enough for this. There is no way I would have found this, Turkish being the European language I am the least familiar with. This is absolutely freaking awesome. You probably saved me from a math-induced meltdown.

That is a really cool shape, too. Did you ever get around to building it? It seems you went for a guitar-type six-string arrangement here, too. I thought about doing that too (my brother is a guitar player) but he really likes the sound of doubled strings.

I might be building this at the end of the year, right now money is tight for many musicians in Europe as they have been out of jobs for over a year now. While this was the body shape I suggested (one of my standards I offer), he chose to have another body type (one of mine again).

 

[tanplastic]

It actually makes sense though - the last time we saw him wielding a guitar on stage...it was a Telecaster

Never saw Scott live, lucky you! Such a unique talent.

 

[solfege]

Well, this is officially the most interesting project you've ever come up with, and that's saying something.

 

[epizootics]

Cheers Solfege! We will see how it pans out.

A local music store actually has a couple of sazes, which they were kind enough to let me look at and measure. They seemed to be on the cheap side (construction was a bit rough and they didn't have any ornaments) but at least I got to see the instrument up close.

The first thing that jumped at me is how low the frets are - heck, they are basically a piece of plastic string wound a few times around the neck. It seems to be an important feature of the instrument when you look at all the sliding up and down the neck the players do. I think I can get close with Sintoms' super-low fret wire (0.023") and a bit of levelling.

The neck itself is very narrow and quite deep. I was thinking of making it a bit thicker to accommodate my brother's large hands (he used to be a professional rock climber).

For the sake of convenience, I'll be using 6-in-line, Kluson-type tuners on an angled headstock. I played with the angle until I found the best compromise. Strings won't follow a perfectly straight course from the nut to the tuners, but hey, it'll still be better than a Les Paul.

Here's what my photoshop mock-up looks like so far:

Neck through construction / soft maple neck / African mahogany sides / wenge fretboard.

In terms of pickups, my feeling is that this things screams 'ceramic'. Something like an overwound lipstick pickup. I've made those with shortened ceramic HB magnets in a blade HB bobbin, trimmed down to fit into a strat cover. I want some of that acoustic-type, hi-fi high end in there.

I am still debating what to do with the truss rod. I don't think the originals have one, but I'd rather stay on the safe side, what with that long thin neck. Headstock adjust is out of the question as I don't want to weaken the headstock transition any further, but 'heel' adjust would require routing a pretty deep channel there. I would have gone with a spoke wheel but said spoke wheels are too wide. The other option would be to make it non-adjustable and simply epoxy a strip of carbon fiber in there, which would have the added benefit of making the neck lighter. Does anyone have experience with those types of things?