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"Dazed and Confused" Lawsuit. . . Finally.

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by micpoc, Jun 29, 2010.

  1. slickschoppers

    slickschoppers Tele-Holic

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    that is CORRECT. he didn't "just let it slide".. he lost. they showed NUMBEROUS songs with the same chord progression.

    and as far as thinking that he is protecting a song he is "making big money" off of that is crap too.... excluding people that play guitar, how many people do you know that buy satch's music anymore?

    I honestly don't know too many people that even know who satch is...

    YES,,, I knew who he was, but I know alot of people that refered to him as "some guitar player that is suing coldplay"

    I think satch sued them for publicity. he knew he couldn't win, and he knew it was bogus. in my view it is Satch that lost credibility as a musician...

    that does not appear to be the case with the the O.P.'s post though.
     
  2. middy

    middy Friend of Leo's

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    "Good artists borrow, great artists steal."
    -- Pablo Picasso

    I think Jake deserves a settlement out of this. I love Jimmy Page, but he has sticky fingers.
     
  3. TNO

    TNO Friend of Leo's

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    "What about Tom Petty having "Mary Jane's last dance" taken by the Chili Peppers and used in "Dani California"?"

    "Mary Jane" was a pretty obvious ripoff of the Jayhawk's sound-Tom even admitted as much.
     
  4. kec!

    kec! Tele-Holic

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    You might be right.

    Check out the last song on Jimmy's Session Man CD...

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Little Ricky

    Little Ricky Tele-Holic Silver Supporter

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    That's funny...just two days ago I found the Yardbirds version on youtube and thought, Wow, I didn't know LZ covered that? Then my friends told me it went back farther to JH. And now this.
    The LZ version blows away the YB version. I'll have to check out JH now.
    I think the most important thing is that an author gets public (official) credit for a work. After that, it's up to them to make money off it. If LZ had never taken it, and had their success with it, nobody would know who this guy was.
    Without knowing too much, it seems like a settlement would make both parties happy - I'm sure Page can afford what this guy's asking, and then it will be officially over and done with...until his grandkids appeal the case to Page's kids.
     
  6. Skully

    Skully Doctor of Teleocity

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    It's not about the length of copyright or anything like that. It's about knowing an issue exists for years and not taking action. That's the potential legal problem. I don't know about the law to explain or discuss it any further, but I know it can be an issue in cases like these.
     
  7. middy

    middy Friend of Leo's

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    I think that applies more to defense of trademarks (Band-Aid, Kleenex) than copyrights, but I could be wrong.
     
  8. Brad Pittiful

    Brad Pittiful Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    well there you have it! :lol:
     
  9. kec!

    kec! Tele-Holic

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    Well, after a little more research. Teddy Irwin was the guitar player on the album, not JP.

    There's a 2001 interview with Jake. It seems Hendrix copped "Hey Joe" from Jake's friend, Tim Rose.

    WS: Now how about your work with Tim Rose. Were you called The Feldmans or was it Tim Rose and The Thorns?

    JH: Goodness gracious. Where did you find out about this? But you're right. It wasn't really called The Feldmans. We were Tim Rose and The Thorns. I have to give Tim credit. He was the one who came up with that thing Jimi Hendrix did later, "Hey Joe." Our idea was to do folk-rock. But our idea of what that would be was to take folk songs and turn them into rock songs. We would take songs like "Tom Dooley" and we made it into a 6/8 blues. We took "Mandy" and rocked it up.

    Tim had this friend who had written this folk song called "Hey Joe" (ed. note: Billy Roberts). It actually went (starts singing with a traditional folk rhythm) "Hey Joe, where you going with that gun in your hand." Tim took it and rearranged it for us to play. We were the first band to do it that way. A few other groups picked up on it later, but Hendrix heard Tim do it in England a few years later. That's where he got it and used it. Just like "Dazed And Confused" happened to me. We were both ripped off. That arrangement of "Hey Joe" was something Tim came up with for Tim Rose and The Thorns.


    Source: http://www.furious.com/perfect/jakeholmes.html
     
  10. Brad Pittiful

    Brad Pittiful Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    this gets more interesting by the minute!
     
  11. theHUSTLER

    theHUSTLER Tele-Meister

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    at this point in rock n roll, true and complete originality is VERY RARE

    how many songs have the same three-four chords arranged in the same order with a similar time signature? tens of thousands


    its seems that the only way to get something TRUELY NON DERIVATIVE at this point is to use complex chords (lots of them) and arrangements. ...but that often sounds "unmusical" to the ears. if you take simple songs? then its been done. there are only so many chords and combinations.
     
  12. jitensha

    jitensha Tele-Holic

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    I always fail to see what the problem is with this. As soon as any material enters the cultural lexicon its fair game to be re-approriated in the creation of new works - its how the culture self perpetuates. There are reams of precedents for this throughout art history in both music and also art. In addition usually its the lawyers or the publishing holders who make the money in these types of claims not the artists so arguments about intellectual property fall flat.

    Here is the link to the My Sweet Lord/Chiffons thread. And I'll cut and paste some of what I wrote there.

    In addition to the Zeppelin/Stones lifting licks, Picasso appropriated African masks, William Burroughs made cut-up poems in the 50`s by cutting up existing texts. In the 60`s Warhol, Lichenstein and others made art from pre-existing popular imagery. Sherri Levine and Richard Prince re-photographed other peoples existing photographs as an artistic gesture on authorship. More recently, Scottish artist Douglas Gordon screened Hitchocks Psycho unedited but slowed down to be 24hours long - its an amazing work.

    Roland Barthes wrote an essay on the "Death of the Author" in the mid 60`s Umberto Eco wrote "The Poetics of the Open Work" around the same time. Nicholas Bourriaud put a really great book out around 2002 called Postproduction that talks about how the culture and its art feed upon each other. Google Lawrence Lessig on TED talks for his lecture on how copyright laws are killing creativity.

    As artists we all want credit and deserve to be paid for our work. I'm not talking about downloading product and not paying for it but just that there are so many precedents of appropriation in art that its a completely legit form of working and really unavoidable -- I can't imagine the last 100 years of art without it. I think it actually benefits innovations in music in the end as well.
     
  13. Oster

    Oster Friend of Leo's

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    If Page sessioned on the original track (perhaps as bassist if not guitar?) then maybe he did author some of the parts after all. He wasn't just a sessioner after all but a producer as well. Maybe he suggested the descending bassline - uncredited - who knows?

    I've sessioned before - creatively sessioned - and it's a real burn when something you 'write' makes the song (like a riff or hook bassline) but you didn't write the words or basic chords so you have nothing other than the $70.00 you charged or whatever. The law is the law and it doesn't adequately cover music IMO. What makes The Stones' 'Satisfaction': the lyrics and chords or that riff?

    This could be an interesting situation indeed.
     
  14. Boubou

    Boubou Doctor of Teleocity

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    Well thats who gets credit on my iPod's HeyJoe from Jimi
     
  15. scrapyardblue

    scrapyardblue Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    I get a chuckle when somebody talks about chord structure and stealing songs in the same discussion. If chord structure was a key component, 90 % the songs recorded in the past 30 years have beem stolt.
     
  16. grinchmonkey

    grinchmonkey Tele-Meister Ad Free Member

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    Blech, you list some "artists" that I think are very over-rated for the crap they produced - whether it changed the art world or not. (Ears go on the side of your head, etc) Granted, some of those people I am unfamiliar with, but that last thing just sounds dumb, not like art. Slowing down a movie is art? In the 80s I must have had some very artistic cassette and VHS players, I guess.

    Sorry that was off-topic. I do find this thread interesting. I had no idea that the other versions of this song existed. Not sure where I stand on it though. The original artist should be credited, but he should decide to litigate in less than 40 years in my opinion.
     
  17. fezz parka

    fezz parka ---------------------------

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    In the EU, yes. In the US, it's 75 years after the authors death.
     
  18. jitensha

    jitensha Tele-Holic

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    Fair enough, tastes are subjective and I know contemporary art isn't everyone's cup of tea (nor do I think it should or need to be) That being said, there is no one I mentioned that hasn't been recognized or hasn't secured their place in the art history books and I raised them mostly for example. However, my point was mainly this, that artists and musicians have appropriated existing works for forever, its a completely legitimate way to work and it's the way that culture moves forward. Does Disney own Cinderella? (actually, the story has existed for centuries) In a sense we ALL own Cinderella, its part of the cultural fabric, but you can bet Disney would sue you're a** if you referenced it in a new work. I think that is tragic. Lawyers and corporations shouldn't control culture, you and I - the makers and participants should.

    We're a society that less and less produces material goods as we move toward an information economy; this push to privatize information is a serious, and I'd argue a dangerous and slippery, slope for anyone involved in the cultural industries. I work as an artist so I'm invested in this topic I guess. Its politics as much worthwhile art is, and I apologize to the moderators if I'm pushing the forum envelope here. Just my 2 cents.

    [re: the Douglas Gordan's Psycho. I thought it was brilliant, Hitchcock's archetype for the modern suspense film exaggerated to the extreme but also neutralized simultaneously, its a chance to actually linger on each individual frame of such a beautifully shot film - silently, meditatively. Its impressive but I guess you have to experience it. Contemporary art's not so difficult really, you just have to forget what you think you already know or expect about art.

    Anyway....
     
  19. xjazzy

    xjazzy Friend of Leo's

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    Are you sure?

    http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1621614/20090916/coldplay.jhtml
     
  20. tiktok

    tiktok Poster Extraordinaire

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    1. I've never heard that Page was on the Jake Holmes original.

    2. While many blues tunes share the same chord changes and lyrical structure, show me a tune that sounds like "I'm Confused" prior to the Holmes track. I've never heard or heard of one. Blues is very much a folk-derived idiom, so original authorship is difficult to validate. "I'm Confused" is not a blues tune--Jake wrote it. "Dazed and Confused" obviously borrows heavily from it.

    3. Mick and Keith split their publishing, so Keith writing the riff and Mick writing the lyrics/melody or whatever isn't a problem--they set up their songwriting that way. There's other Stones tunes where Woody or The Other Mick brought something in and then Mick and Keith added some stuff and...kept all the publishing and writing credit.
     
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