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DAWghaus 2.0 under construction...Closet into isolation booth?

Discussion in 'Recording In Progress' started by 4pickupguy, Apr 1, 2017.

  1. woodman

    woodman Grand Wazoo @ The Woodshed Gold Supporter

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    Now you're diggin' where there's taters! :lol::D
     
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  2. 4pickupguy

    4pickupguy Doctor of Teleocity

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    I did a poor man’s RTA of the vocal booth pre-sound treatments by pumping pink noise through one of my monitors, first facing straight up, then facing the middle of the curved glass. And recorded it. It has two very pronounced peaks. One at 125hz and one at 125khz. This was done without a proper RTA, but, it was enough to identify the fundamental rez. Not surprisingly, the resonant frequencies equate to the longest dimension of the space (a function of the physical length of the wave). So, I am building a bass trap frame to hang from the ceiling and the rest I will treat with 2” pyramid foam tiles as need as they fit my very limited funds (48ct 12”x12” for $70) and a rug of some sort. The bass trap will kill my plans for lighting inside but I will figure out something.
    Not from my DAW (off the interwebs) but it looked a lot like this:
    IMG_3084.JPG
    Parallel surfaces are evil.
     
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  3. woodman

    woodman Grand Wazoo @ The Woodshed Gold Supporter

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    Yes indeed. ... On the graph, however, that big ugly low-mid hump looks like it's at 250 Hz ...??? :confused: (Am I missing something?) That's the heartland of Mud City.
     
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  4. 4pickupguy

    4pickupguy Doctor of Teleocity

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    Sorry Woodman!
    I wasn’t near my iPad so I grabbed a pic off the web. Here is the actual result from my daw. I fear it is far worse than shown in the low freqs because I am not using anything close to a flat condenser mic, in fact, its a cardioid with a tapered lowend response and my monitors suck on dry toast. But all this confirms what I am hearing from standing inside the booth with the monitor throwing pink,grey and white noise. I had actually guessed in the 200hz range before throwing into the daws analyzer. The high energy stuff is going to be the booger bear. The bright reflective stuff I think I can kill with foam. Again, although the curved glass is a reflective surface, once past the focal point, its diffusing things. IOW, there’s a hot spot ahead of the wall to avoid until it hits the foam. This is my working theory and it’s backed up by what my fat, non reflective ass, hears when in the booth with the monitor. Again, I don’t think perfection is in the cards for this booth but, I think workable may be. I’ll be happy with increased workflow as a trade-off. And it beats facing charges for killing my dog. (sarcasm)
    As a baseline it’s REALLY not professional, but, I will settle for quantitative if not qualitative. I will run the same test after my treatments to see if they helped.
    IMG_3085.JPG
    I won’t get to do anything on the booth for a week because I am headed to Indonesia for a meeting. Halfway around the world to sit in the same room with some folks for a few hours[emoji20]. 4 days in the air, 1 day on the ground...[emoji37]
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
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  5. 4pickupguy

    4pickupguy Doctor of Teleocity

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    Ordered the 2” pyramid acoustic tiles to treat the vocal booth should arrive tomorrow. Completed the trim throughout the room and built the center indirect lighting panel. The picture is grainy as hell because the low light. There will be indirect lighting troughs a few inches below the ceiling along the walls. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel!
    IMG_3103.JPG
    EAE3AF81-4261-48F2-A9A6-2E47254DE09E.jpeg
     
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  6. 4pickupguy

    4pickupguy Doctor of Teleocity

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    Anybody ever use two-sided tape sucessfully when mounting acoustic tiles. Carpet tape maybe?
    IMG_1504.JPG
     
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  7. woodman

    woodman Grand Wazoo @ The Woodshed Gold Supporter

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    My recent studio-building project taught me one certain lesson in physics: Eventually, gravity always wins! The tape will probably hold for a while, maybe a good while, but inevitably you'll be picking them up off the floor and putting them back up. I've seen ads for foam tape, but unless you're in a desert (which of course you're not) it may be dicey. I'd look for experienced advice if I were you. Are you averse to spray adhesive or caulk-gun cement due to possible wall marring?
     
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  8. 4pickupguy

    4pickupguy Doctor of Teleocity

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    Yes Woodman, gravity ain’t just a good idea, it’s the law! I am going to used a spray adhesive. Loctite makes some really good single surface spray adhesive andI think Lowe’s or Home Depot carry it.
    Once I get the foam in the booth and lighting sorted, we are moving back into the DAWghaus. We are both about to bust with the song backlog. Cant wait, getting close.
     
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  9. AxeVictimAZ

    AxeVictimAZ Tele-Holic

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    My wife bought some foam panels for me last Christmas. They came with a can of 3M General Purpose 45 adhesive spray.
    Having no idea how much to use and not wanting them to become a permanent fixture I put them up. About half of them have ended up on the floor or on top of speakers or my recording desk. I put some of them back up using more of the same. Either I need to use something else so they stick better or get off my a$$ and find some rock wool, build some frames, cover them with some decent fabric and hang them up. That's what I wanted to do initially but since I didn't get on it my wife provided the motivation. The foam helps, but it's not what the rock wool panels do.
     
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  10. 4pickupguy

    4pickupguy Doctor of Teleocity

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    I agree, the acoustic panels using rock wool are certainly better and if done right, look far nicer. The top of the vocal booth closet will have a framed bass trap of rock/mineral wool and the studio will have them (covered by musically themed tapestries) on the walls.

    You can get used to how a set of monitors or a room sounds and learn to compensate when mixing just through sheer exposure. Not the case when capturing. Turns out microphones are stupid yet honest little creatures. That’s why I am putting more effort in the booth treatments. I found an article a week or so ago about treating iso booths for specific purposes, vocals or acoustic instruments and it turns out some studios compromise between “deadning” and “leveling”. They advised that acoustic instruments do better by merely treating the “high spots” and not killing it completely. I will start by adding the trap at the top of the booth and doing a checker board pattern with foam panels, then progressively treat as required. Chrissy wants a portrait of her life long hero Stevie Wonder on the wall somewhere. I found a Stevie Wonder pillow case of all things to make an acoustic panel from and it will go eye level on the wall of the booth.
    At the end of all this it may still fall short, but not because I didn’t try. This is the DAWghaus I have and I have to make it work.
    I am looking into “real” mics worthy of my little bride’s vocals and MY GOD ARE THEY EXPENSIVE!!! Will need much advice there oh Oracles of R.i.p.!
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2018
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  11. t-ray

    t-ray Tele-Afflicted Gold Supporter

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    Have no idea of your budget, but I recalled this thread about the MikTek MK300
    http://www.tdpri.com/threads/miktek-mk300.791145/
     
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  12. 4pickupguy

    4pickupguy Doctor of Teleocity

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    Perfect! Multi pattern too! That will let me do Mid/Side recording for acoustics and “magic choir” vocals! $300.00 is a fraction of some of the spendier ones I saw at $4300.00! I was specifically going for a LDC so this is certainly a contender. Thanks!
     
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  13. 4pickupguy

    4pickupguy Doctor of Teleocity

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    Got the acoustic tiles installed in a checker board pattern today. I would install a few close the door, then clap, “check test” to see if it was helping. Well, of course it helped, its about 90% there, but, there is a freq that has emerged that was very stubborn.
    IMG_1520.JPG

    So, I pumped pink noise through a bluetooth stereo speaker using my iPad while analyzing the frequencies with my phone.

    Pink noise iPad app:
    IMG_1519.JPG

    iPhone analyzer app showed what I was hearing as 490hz. Its not loud when I clap, its a faint artifact after the clap and it was bugging me. Then, I found it. I tapped on the top of the curved closeout I made for the door and there it was, 490hz on the analyzer. Its basically a drum head.
    IMG_1518.JPG

    I have some flat foam I can use to treat the inside top of the closeout. Then, later I will hang a bass trap frame from the cieling and see if that kills anything else.
     
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  14. woodman

    woodman Grand Wazoo @ The Woodshed Gold Supporter

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    The $300 for the Miktek MK 300 may be the best money for gear I ever spent. You can't go wrong.
     
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  15. paratus

    paratus Friend of Leo's

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    On the subject of your door and the 490 Hz resonance....I have read the thread but am not totally clear on what is vibrating like a "drum" (your curved closeout for the door?).

    Quick background, a fair amount of my work includes acoustical design, for houses of worship, school music suites, recording studios and critical listening rooms for some hi fi OEMs. I have never worked on a space as small as your vocal booth tho...:)

    That said, absorption alone is not going to solve the problem with your 490 Hz resonance. It looks like you have the ability to use a signal generator and an FFT analyzer, which is good. You could use the tools in your DAW or iPhone app. I would probably use my DAW if that's all i had for tools.

    Instead of exciting the space with pink noise, you might want to do some slow sine wave sweeps with a speaker that can put out what a singer might do in a small space....say about 72 dB or so. As you sweep, listen for the frequencies that produce rattles or excessive vibration (your 490 Hz freq should be one of them). Log those frequencies. You can then get to work on fixing the offending surfaces by stiffening them to reduce the amplitude and shift the resonant frequency.

    The basic shape of the curved door is usually problematic as it will tend to focus reflected sound energy....putting a singer in there will help break that up some.

    Once you solve the big issues, you might want to measure reverberation vs frequency to make sure you have balanced decay times, at least in the vocal range. I use dedicated hardware and software packages to do these measurements, but I have had clients that got decent results using Room EQ Wizard https://www.roomeqwizard.com/ You can use the results of reverberation vs frequency measurements to fine tune the absorbers you put in a space so that it performs better.

    Anyway, enough rambling, if you have questions or want some help, feel free to shoot me a PM.

    Good luck
     
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  16. 4pickupguy

    4pickupguy Doctor of Teleocity

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    Cool site paratus, many thanks. The same app does tone generation with a number of wave forms. The top of the curved door closeout is made of thin plywood. The curved face is 3/16" luan plywood. I used to made acoustic guitars and defaulted to thin, braced wood structure. I can change the frequency by adding mass to the top of the cylindrical closeout. I tossed one of my 5bls shot bags on the top and tapped it and its a dead thud. So nutrualizing the vibrating plywood drum head should be easy. Now clapping reveals the long dimension of the 9' tall closet cieling. I hear a faint rez there that measures 500hz, which, according to the otts chart is a 2.25' long wave. 2.25 x 4 = 9', so, I suspect this was the very strong 125/250hz I heard at the beginning. I will make a bass trap frame and hang it from the cieling and deaden the drum head and try to record some acoustic guitar and Chrissy's voice on something to see what it sounds like to a mic. I will delve into the site link you provided as well. In true Fletch fashion I am starting to saw BBs, becoming obcessed over some detail that has me curious while Rome burns.
    I will no doubt circle back on this.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
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  17. AxeVictimAZ

    AxeVictimAZ Tele-Holic

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    I’m impressed with how you guys bird dog this whole thing. Mark is a pro and Fletch is too!
    It’s all I can do to plug my axe in and poke a mic into the speaker and hope for the best.:p
    This is a heck of a learning experience for me and I’m not even involved.
    The data is being collected for future reference tho.
    Following this with great interest as I have the utmost repsect for you guys.
    Thanks for sharing your experience!!!
     
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  18. 4pickupguy

    4pickupguy Doctor of Teleocity

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    Jim, this why I turn to the Oracles of RIP. I am stumbling and bumbling through this. I would rather end up with something that is imperfect that I can work with, than not have anything. I’ve always known that the curved glass is going to present its challenges by being reflective, focusing surface. The focal point appears to be a few inches short of the back wall. I’m surprized that I didnt somehow construct a sphere of glass to record in. I’m probably polishing a turd and at the end of the day will just toss the dog in the booth and record vocals in the splashy room seated at the desk as always[emoji23] I have all but the primary reflections tamed and a couple of rev/rez issues to deal with, then, I’ll toss a mic in it and see what i get and proceed from there. The website link paratus posted is really cool and has great info.
     
  19. jvin248

    jvin248 Doctor of Teleocity

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    .

    Below are a couple of sound insulation solutions, the first because of the analysis, the second is a better build. Having worked with the insulation in the second one, I'm trying the shredded blue jeans sound deadener insulation next. An open weave top fabric like burlap is necessary. Make one that can completely cover the window and seal around outside the trim to the wall -- maybe put it on a hinge and latch so you can open it when not recording.

    For the vocal booth ... get a couple of expanding closet rods and pack clothes in there, that will do more than the foam. Easy to experiment at least. Double up foam pad and heavy carpet on the floor inside the booth (the dog can't get in there right?). Is the ceiling height enough where curtain rods up near the top could hang old unused shirts and sweaters to fill that whole overhead space yet still stand up to sing? Or fill it with toddler-type clothes from a garage sale as they won't hang down so far? Or a series of dowel rods/trim strips hanging many old towels bumched together but hanging down?

    For the main room, if you can fill one wall with book shelves and non-uniform books they create a mass wall plus sound dispersal surface. Turn the books so the spines are toward the wall and the rough edges are out -- which will help with reusing books you might not otherwise have out. Try to fill any spaces with the books -- pack tight but random shapes with some pushed back others pulled forward. The wall opposite all the playing and recording or the narrow wall of a long rectangle room was the best location.


     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
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  20. mitchfinck

    mitchfinck Tele-Holic

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