Crema Wheat?

[pryde]

Pondering what to build...so many options...so little time...

I like the idea of a bit more power, tighter bass, and a tad meaner than a stock 5e3. The video demos are very compelling for sure.

Has anyone modded their 5e3 to (or built) a Tungsten crema wheat? Is it possible on a normal 5E3 turret board?

So from what limited info I can gather it seams there is:
-bigger iron (not sure what specs?)
-GZ34 rectifier
-dual gang tone pot
-some power filter, cathode and bias changes

I sold my 5E3 a while back but would consider another one for sure if I can get the crema wheat vibe going. Any info and thoughts/recommendations is much appreciated.

 

[mungus]

You might also be interested to compare notes with the Divided by 13 CJ11. Almost the same cathodyne PI power amp as the 5E3 (+ screen resistors and master vol), Blackface AB763 pre, GZ34.

 

[strat100]

Lot of info here http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=1067454 and http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=15043.0 built one myself from all the info there,fantastic amp.

 

[jhundt]

You might also be interested to compare notes with the Divided by 13 CJ11. Almost the same cathodyne PI power amp as the 5E3 (+ screen resistors and master vol), Blackface AB763 pre, GZ34.

that sounds like a Princeton to me.

 

[muchxs]

Has anyone modded their 5e3 to (or built) a Tungsten crema wheat? Is it possible on a normal 5E3 turret board?

The assumption is it's exotic and far removed from a stock 5E3 circuit. It ain't. There are a couple minor tweaks that make a big difference.

A big part of it is getting the supply voltage in the right range.

You might also be interested to compare notes with the Divided by 13 CJ11. Almost the same cathodyne PI power amp as the 5E3 (+ screen resistors and master vol), Blackface AB763 pre, GZ34.

Old news but I've been working on a bunch of Princeton Reverbs. Seems another one walks in the door every time I send one out the door.

A tweaked Princeton Reverb has an overdrive tone that makes a stock tweed Deluxe sound broken by comparison. Loose bottom end and blurry attack tend to be issues with a stock Deluxe. The attack tends to be a little sharper in a Princeton Reverb while the bottom end still needs a little work. IMO an AB763 pre with a '50s P.A. is stickin' a Band-Aid on top of a Band-Aid. Adding a master volume on top of that makes me scratch my (already quite bald) head.

that sounds like a Princeton to me.

Ya think?


In my spare time... with my spare money... I'm working up a goody I call The 5X3. Or 5E3X. I took inventory of shortcomings of the Prolux and 5E3X2 designs and came up with something a little more original. It's not too far removed from a stock 5E3 although the circuit board is custom to accommodate some extra stuff.


Something I "discovered" with the Princeton Reverbs: Big iron isn't necessarily an asset. Once I get past the wimpy stock power transformer... voltage is too high, available current is too low...

...the "wimpy" stock output transformer may be a compromise for big fat clean tones but it's a monster for overdrive. Jeez, Louise!


Now that a stock 5E3 sounds broken by comparison I'm going to fix it. I can trace the lineage of the Princeton Reverb circuit back to the 5E3. Starting at the 5E3, here's how it goes:

The 5E3 preamp doesn't push a lot of gain. It's surprisingly distorted considering its low gain 12AY7 stages. Basic power amp architecture is cathodyne PI, cathode bias, no NFB.

Tweed Harvard is like a tweed Vibrolux with the trem deleted. It gets fixed bias. It gets NFB. Its preamp pushes approximately the same gain as a 12AX7.

Brown Princeton and tweed Vibrolux are astonishingly similar. We still have basic "Tweed Deluxe" underlying architecture with 2x 6V6s, a 5Y3 recto and a simple tone control in the preamp.

Black Princeton gets a BF tone stack and a 5AR4 rectifier.

Black Princeton Reverb gets all that with reverb.

Trick is to select circuit segments with assets such as tight bottom end and crisp attack. Combine them to get a helfer tight tweed Deluxe.

 

[pryde]

Good info thanks everyone,

I would love to see what muchxs cooks up by cherry-picking through that 5E3 lineage. Sounds interesting for sure.

 

[mungus]

I've been working on a bunch of Princeton Reverbs. Seems another one walks in the door every time I send one out the door.

Good for you. I thought maybe the OP might have been interested to check out a similar schematic to the 5E3 but with a GZ34. Gives you some idea of the PT voltages at the very least. Anyway, thanks for letting us know our help wasn't required and that the 5E3 - one of the best guitar amps ever made - is "broken".

 

[muchxs]

Good for you. I thought maybe the OP might have been interested to check out a similar schematic to the 5E3 but with a GZ34. Gives you some idea of the PT voltages at the very least. Anyway, thanks for letting us know our help wasn't required and that the 5E3 - one of the best guitar amps ever made - is "broken".

If the '57- '60 tweed Deluxe were perfect Leo would have continued building it or a similar circuit. He didn't. The Deluxe quickly evolved into an amp with a GZ34, a long tailed pair, NFB and other changes.

There's a word for ignoring things that can stand improvement... it's called "denial". Denial will only get you so far. You can alter your playing style to accommodate the 5E3's blurry attack and loose bottom end... or you can fix it. If you think it's perfect as- is crank it up and try to play a legato single note solo. Really hang on to the notes. Betcha the sustain craps out before you do.

 

[mungus]

Some people (Neil Young for example...) like the 5E3 Deluxe precisely because of all its quirks. Some people like Blackfaces and their unique sounds. Some people like both. I've no idea what "perfect" even means with respect to music gear and in any case that's for the OP to decide in this thread.

 

[jhundt]

that's the fun thing about Princeton amps. You can use it as a platform for creating the bestest most-improved version of a 5e3, like Much x's has suggested, or you can use it as a platform for recreating that old BF Super Reverb that you had to let go back in '83... like I did.

I was just thinking "dang, don't these guys ever get enough with that 5e3 thang? seems like every picker and his daddy has a 5e3 or a 5e3 kit, or a 5e3 clone, or an improved version of a 5e3, or a boutique "update of the classic Fender 5e3 mojo"".

then I remembered what forum I was on, and which sub-forum, and I thought "oh yeah, of course! that's pretty much what this is all about!"

 

[muchxs]

Some people (Neil Young for example...) like the 5E3 Deluxe precisely because of all its quirks. Some people like Blackfaces and their unique sounds. Some people like both. I've no idea what "perfect" even means with respect to music gear and in any case that's for the OP to decide in this thread.

Neil Young's Number One is one of about 240 he owns and it's not stock.

If you like flabby bass and mushy attack I guess a stock tweed Deluxe is perfect for you. I expect the OP is aware of its limitations which is likely why he's interested in a Crema.

I was just thinking "dang, don't these guys ever get enough with that 5e3 thang? seems like every picker and his daddy has a 5e3 or a 5e3 kit, or a 5e3 clone, or an improved version of a 5e3, or a boutique "update of the classic Fender 5e3 mojo"".

then I remembered what forum I was on, and which sub-forum, and I thought "oh yeah, of course! that's pretty much what this is all about!"

Yup.

I constantly get requests for "a 5E3 with reverb" or our second place winner, "a 5E3 with TMB tone controls". I found it's easier to add tweed to a black panel amp than it is to add reverb to a 5E3. Yeah, it can be done. Do it to a tweed Deluxe... it's a lesson in why Leo systematically tightened up his amps before adding reverb.

"Tweed Deluxe with tone controls" is a lesson in how much gain you give up when add a tone stack.


This is my landscape.

http://www.thevintagesound.com/ffg/schematics.html

 

[jhundt]

I admire the spirit of all the 5e3 builders and modders on this forum. We should all remember the Leo Fender story.

Leo Fender built amps... for a living. And he built a company to build amps. He did not play music himself. But he was well-known for asking artists - big-name and small-time, jazz, country, and rock'n'roll - to try his designs and evaluate them. And he listened, and he tried to make amps that filled the needs of working musicians.

He made a wonderful amp - the 5e3. But as soon as he finished that one he was looking for the next improvement - based on what he heard from his musician friends. He didn't mess around with the minute details of the 5e3, trying to improve every little bit. He tossed it out and came up with a new design!

 

[muchxs]

He made a wonderful amp - the 5e3. But as soon as he finished that one he was looking for the next improvement - based on what he heard from his musician friends. He didn't mess around with the minute details of the 5e3, trying to improve every little bit. He tossed it out and came up with a new design!

...the 6G3. About the only thing the 6G3 has in common with the 5E3 is a pair of 6V6 tubes.

They both have knobs.

 

[jhundt]

and what was left of the 5e3 became the 6g2; and the 5f1a became the aa764; this is starting to read like Genesis!

 

[pryde]

Hey good fellas I want to keep everything good and light-hearted on this discussion. I appreciate the feedback from everyone regarding all the possible options for my build goal.

Definitely the main 5E3 shortcoming for me is the loose bottom end and blurry attack as muchxs and others pointed out. I play a lot of finger-picking so a tighter attack and bass is good for me.

More power isn't a primary goal as the 5E3 was plenty loud really; however I won't shy away from it if its necessary to get some better bass/attack

 

[mungus]

He didn't mess around with the minute details of the 5e3, trying to improve every little bit. He tossed it out and came up with a new design!

You make it sound like it was a failed experiment not one of the best guitar amps ever made!

The OP seems to be looking for a tweed deluxe kind of sound so maybe we shouldn't toss the 5E3 away just yet.

 

[blind illusion]

I dont know if you plan on building yours or just ordering a crema wheat but I have heard people say that the tube depot 5e3 kit is kinda creama wheat like.
It has a gz34 rectifier tube, it is supposed to have a bigger iron(I think I remember them saving it was a deluxe reverb transformer or something?).
I am building one at the moment. dont let the pcb fool you, its thick and well layed out, it was very easy to work on and this is my first amp and my first real soldering experience. Tube depot also could probably get you the parts to do it with turret board instead, if you would rather do it that way.

 

[pryde]

I dont know if you plan on building yours or just ordering a crema wheat but I have heard people say that the tube depot 5e3 kit is kinda creama wheat like.
It has a gz34 rectifier tube, it is supposed to have a bigger iron(I think I remember them saving it was a deluxe reverb transformer or something?).
I am building one at the moment. dont let the pcb fool you, its thick and well layed out, it was very easy to work on and this is my first amp and my first real soldering experience. Tube depot also could probably get you the parts to do it with turret board instead, if you would rather do it that way.

Thanks for the info. I will be building it (or something like it) myself. I will most likely do a blank chassis and punch/drill it for a head version. I have nothing against the tube depot pcb but will likely do an eyelet or turret board type build as I like the aesthetics and serviceability of them.

It appears there is some love for a tweaked BF Princeton circuit. Anyone done a stripped-down build (no trem or reverb)? I apologize if this circuit already exists but there are just to damn many to keep track of in the Fender line.

 

[muchxs]

It appears there is some love for a tweaked BF Princeton circuit. Anyone done a stripped-down build (no trem or reverb)? I apologize if this circuit already exists but there are just to damn many to keep track of in the Fender line.

Yup. BF Princeton is a Princeton Reverb with the reverb deleted. Reverb delete saves two tubes, the reverb driver transformer and the reverb pan. The BF Princeton Reverb retains trem because here's a redundant 12AX7 section, otherwise. It's tempting to use the redundant triode as an extra gain stage although a little tricky to implement. The PI doesn't "like" to get whacked with a lotta gain.

Like I said, related circuits are as follows:

The tweed Harvard pushes more gain on the front end compared to a tweed Deluxe. Unlike a Deluxe, it has NFB and fixed bias.

A brown Princeton is similar to a tweed Harvard with the addition of trem.

A black Princeton is similar to a brown Princeton with the addition of a '60s tone stack and the substitution of a GZ34 for the 5Y3.

The black Princeton is the cleanest of the lot. It's not as if it's dramatically tweaked to tighten it up compared to tweed amps. It gets tighter due to the relatively clean preamp architecture.

 

[blind illusion]

Thanks for the info. I will be building it (or something like it) myself. I will most likely do a blank chassis and punch/drill it for a head version. I have nothing against the tube depot pcb but will likely do an eyelet or turret board type build as I like the aesthetics and serviceability of them.

It appears there is some love for a tweaked BF Princeton circuit. Anyone done a stripped-down build (no trem or reverb)? I apologize if this circuit already exists but there are just to damn many to keep track of in the Fender line.

Well, best of luck building your amp, hope you enjoy building it and playing it!