Crazy Question Regarding Alcohol Based Staining

[rambleon]

Ok, I'm about to start my second ever partscaster and have very basic knowledge of woodworking.
I'm planning on getting my unfinished body from Warmoth. I was very happy with the last one I got from them- great choice of wood and sanded super smooth with no flaws.
This time I'm planning on getting an ash body and staining the entire thing with ColorTone Vintage Amber (not the most original build, I know).
I know mixing the stain with water will lead to issues with swelling and grain raised which I dont want to deal with, so I'm going down the alcohol path. Since the alcohol is likely to dry super fast and result in an uneven stain, I read somewhere that it is not uncommon for woodworkers to dip entire small objects into the stain for a few minutes. So would it be crazy if I filled a small shallow pan/ tub that would fit the body with the mixed stain and let it sit in there for a few minutes in order to get a good even stain?
Please note, spraying is not an option for me.

 

[barbrainy]

http://www.joewoodworker.com/transtints.htm

Colour tone and transtint are the same thing.

Your idea sounds risky to me. A) the end grain will soak up more than the face grain. B) you have much less control over how much colour is going on. Far safer to slowly work up to your desired colour by a number of coats.

 

[Tony Done]

I also think it sounds risky. Since it is alcohol based, you could dilute it well with alcohol, and build it up slowly, as suggested by Barbrainy.

Could you use a Preval sprayer? I've sprayed nitro lacquer with them, plus a whole lot of other stuff at work, no problem.

 

[HockeyPop98]

I wouldn't dip it, as they said above, far too risky. You can dilute the tint/alcohol mixture with water, it will slow the evaporation, and still not take nearly as long to dry, lessening wood swelling and giving you the time to spread the dye evenly.
It's probably one of the best solutions to the problem without being perfect.

But then again, this is an imperfect world!

Best of luck.

Note: I haven't used ash, but have used swamp ash, which can be splotchy, but I've had very good results with Wudtone finishes. They're pricey, but if you follow the easy instructions, should be a cakewalk!

 

[rambleon]

Thanks for the advise guys. Based on the consensus I'm steering clear of dipping. I've also heard of people using lacquer thinner mixed in with the alcohol and dye to slow the drying process. is that a viable option too?

 

[rambleon]

I wouldn't dip it, as they said above, far too risky. You can dilute the tint/alcohol mixture with water, it will slow the evaporation, and still not take nearly as long to dry, lessening wood swelling and giving you the time to spread the dye evenly.
It's probably one of the best solutions to the problem without being perfect.

But then again, this is an imperfect world!

Best of luck.

Note: I haven't used ash, but have used swamp ash, which can be splotchy, but I've had very good results with Wudtone finishes. They're pricey, but if you follow the easy instructions, should be a cakewalk!

I looked at Wudtone and now am quite intrigued. Do you know if they are oil based?

 

[HockeyPop98]

It appears to be shellac and oil mixture, that I'm guessing by the option of a slightly harder, glossier top coat (most likely dew axed shellac, which I like to use.

These finishes are worth the cost to me. They are kinda like a NENA finish; thin, and shinier with age, at least, the guitars I've seen since then. It only takes a tiny bit to do the whole guitar. The trick is, putting the 2 or 3 different finishes on with a very small patch of cloth, exactly as they instruct. Then, patience. I waited over a month before hand buffing the last top coat, and got a beautiful luster.

Like I said, I'm a fan. [emoji6]

 

[rambleon]

It appears to be shellac and oil mixture, that I'm guessing by the option of a slightly harder, glossier top coat (most likely dew axed shellac, which I like to use.

These finishes are worth the cost to me. They are kinda like a NENA finish; thin, and shinier with age, at least, the guitars I've seen since then. It only takes a tiny bit to do the whole guitar. The trick is, putting the 2 or 3 different finishes on with a very small patch of cloth, exactly as they instruct. Then, patience. I waited over a month before hand buffing the last top coat, and got a beautiful luster.

Like I said, I'm a fan. [emoji6]

Thanks, that's good to know. I wonder if a pre-stain conditioner like the one Minwax makes for oil-based stains would help the process before I start with the Wudtone application...in particular to avoid blotchiness and unevenness? Or perhaps I should just stick to their ingredients?

 

[HockeyPop98]

Thanks, that's good to know. I wonder if a pre-stain conditioner like the one Minwax makes for oil-based stains would help the process before I start with the Wudtone application...in particular to avoid blotchiness and unevenness? Or perhaps I should just stick to their ingredients?

Depends on the color. My last swamp ash was a bass, I just prepped w/180 grit paper rather than 220 to give the black deep penetration coat more grooves to sink into (I used Black Magic Woman, which has 2 color coats and the top coat).

Email Andy, the owner. He was extremely helpful with my concerns with black dye splotching if I used swamp ash. He'll give you a better answer on the conditioner than I could.

 

[R. Stratenstein]

http://www.joewoodworker.com/transtints.htm

Colour tone and transtint are the same thing.

Your idea sounds risky to me. A) the end grain will soak up more than the face grain. B) you have much less control over how much colour is going on. Far safer to slowly work up to your desired colour by a number of coats.

I also think it sounds risky. Since it is alcohol based, you could dilute it well with alcohol, and build it up slowly, as suggested by Barbrainy.

Could you use a Preval sprayer? I've sprayed nitro lacquer with them, plus a whole lot of other stuff at work, no problem.

You can wipe on multiple coats of alcohol-base Transtint/ColorTone to build up to the color intensity and depth you want with a rag. Simple, easy, as safe as it gets.

If you are using blotch-prone wood, don't stain, period. Put down a base coat of lacquer or a couple of coats of shellac, then put a color coat over that. It sits on top of the base coat, so it doesn't get absorbed unevenly, and thus won't blotch. Unfortunately, the best way to get this done is with a sprayer. And like Tony says, a Preval sprayer, widely available, and cheap, will do a great job for you. I don't have any experience with Wudtone, so can't speak to that. If it can be wiped on, and wiping is the only application method available to you, it might be the answer for you.

EDIT: My personal experience with Minwax pre-stain conditioner, has not been good, and there are a lot of reviews on the internet that describe pretty much the same experience as I have had.

 

[barbrainy]

Thanks for the advise guys. Based on the consensus I'm steering clear of dipping. I've also heard of people using lacquer thinner mixed in with the alcohol and dye to slow the drying process. is that a viable option too?

Yes. If you'd read the link I posted, you would have learnt about that. There is also advice in there about how to get even colour.

 

[Meteorman]

+1 on what Dr Stratenstein said.
Couple coats of thinned shellac first, then alcohol+dye. Keep a wet edge.

MinWax Conditioner has never impressed me in any woodworking situation.

I did one Warmoth body with Wudtone. It will be my last. The color was OK, the topcoat was not. YMMV.

 

[rambleon]

+1 on what Dr Stratenstein said.
Couple coats of thinned shellac first, then alcohol+dye. Keep a wet edge.

MinWax Conditioner has never impressed me in any woodworking situation.

I did one Warmoth body with Wudtone. It will be my last. The color was OK, the topcoat was not. YMMV.

Thanks for the info. Would you mind elaborating on why you didn't like the top coat? If I go the Wudtone route I'll probably opt for the non glossy finish.

 

[cboutilier]

You could also experiment with a small chunk of ash and the dip method. See what happens!

 

[Cat MacKinnon]

Also keep in mind that, with alcohol based dyes, you can always wipe plain alcohol over areas to help blend them together and hide lap marks. Alcohol stains/dyes aren't as finicky as they may sound, and plenty of manufacturers use them all the time. As long as you're not using a blotch-prone species of wood, it's not too difficult to get a great finish with them.

If you're really worried about it, you can spray "shader" coats instead (I think someone already mentioned that.) Instead of applying the dye directly to the wood, you'd tint clear lacquer and spray it on. Most Gibsons are done this way. If you're interested in going this route, you might consider using Mixol universal tints instead of Transtint: Mixol tints are much less expensive, are compatible with almost everything (you can even tint epoxy with them!) and come in a bajillion colors. Amazon even has a Mixol "store", and they only run about $7 a bottle.

 

[Vizcaster]

Keep in mind that the same dye will very likely be soluble in both water and alcohol. "NGR" or non-grain-raising dye preparations are the ones you spoke about that are alcohol based. Because they dry so fast they're more often applied with a sprayer. Solar-Luxe is one brand name, but you can make it yourself by diluting TransTint in denatured alcohol.

When I'm applying dye by hand I just dilute it in water and sponge it on with a rag. Hit the end grain first with plain water so it won't soak up too badly (or use some sort of pre-stain conditioner which is nothing more than really diluted sealer). If its a species of wood that is prone to grain-raising, then sponge it first with plain water and knock back the fuzzies with a gentle rubdown by hand with a grey Scotch-brite.

The easiset route is to seal the wood with a sealer or with your clearcoat, then apply some toner coats with the dye mixed into the lacquer and spray until you sneak up on the color you want, then cover it with some clear before buffing it out. Most commercial furniture is finished with the color in the finish, not in the wood.

I'd only use dye in the bare wood for woods that sparkle, like figured mahogany or curly maple. Ash is, IMHO, not in that category. It's pretty, but it works better with a colored clearcoat. My rule of thumb is this: woods that reflect light differently as you shift them around will benefit from a dye stain in the wood; on the other hand woods that are known for their pattern of grain lines are better with a minimum of stain and more color in the finish on top of it. Some woods with prominent light-dark grain lines will look backwards with stain because the early/latewood can reverse itself light-to-dark(which IMHO is why stained pine usually looks amateurish). And be careful of woods like pine or cherry that want to splotch because they absorb stain so unevenly.

 

[Meteorman]

Thanks for the info. Would you mind elaborating on why you didn't like the top coat? If I go the Wudtone route I'll probably opt for the non glossy finish.

The little bottle of gloss topcoat was old and partially oxidized. Consistency of yogurt. Mr Wudtone USA was helpful over the phone ("just add some naptha"), which I did, but it never really reconstituted to something I was happy with. For the price, i was disappointed.
YMMV.
If you want a rub-on finish like that, its hard to beat a fresh bottle of Tru Oil.

 

[MM73]

Maybe I missed this, but why is spraying not an option?

Preval Preval Val-Pack - Power Paint Sprayers - Amazon.com@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WPyP-I6nL.@@AMEPARAM@@51WPyP-I6nL A Preval Valpak runs about $40 on Amazon. If you have a friend with a garage, you have all you need.

The ash body I'm working on was sprayed with Colortone Vintage Amber / alcohol thru a Preval. Simple. Simple. Simple.
The coverage was even... no lap marks.
What I did with it afterwards has been an adventure, but the dye portion of the job was as easy as it gets.