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Could use some guidance and advice on using direct boxes and smaller amps for gigs....

Discussion in 'The BASS Place' started by FortyEight, Sep 30, 2020.

  1. FortyEight

    FortyEight Tele-Meister

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    I haven't had pecan pie in a long time. I have lyme disease and sugar was hard on me and still is so I kind of don't indulge much. I was eating pumpkin pie but last year I discovered it would give me occular migraines like clockwork whenever I ate it. It's my favorite kind of pie and I'm pissed. LOL. The occular migraines are not really fun so I just stopped eating it. I do eat apple pie now and then with no real issues to speak of. So I may have to stick with that this season. Although would be nice to try another type. You know what I used to love when I was a young man was the French Silk from Bakers Square. Oh man.

    That grey peavey is hot.

    I went back and got the 40. I sure hope it doesn't cut the speaker off when using the line out. My 100 doesn't do that. But I guess if it does it's still a good option. I can use it for practice without the di out. I will find out today. Practicing with them tonight. Kind of nervous right now. New people, new situation, etc.

    But I'm really glad I went back and got the 40. Thanks guys. It has a lot more adjustment. I didn't find the sound of the 25 to be all that bad and I dialed in a tone I like. But there is definitely more room to play with the 40 and I can get tones I like without using any of the boost buttons. Only thing is on the 40 the only to me that seems worth using is the "Vintage".

    I will also say this, I tried a guitar in the 25 and I was like blaaaaaa. But I played a guitar for about 1 minute through the 40 and I actually think it has the potential to get a decent guitar sound. It sounded WAAAAAY different than the 25 and even possibly better than the 100 for guitar. It's not something I would normally do but might be a good way to get an off beat sound for guitar.

    You guys are gentlemen and scholars. Thanks for the help a LOT!!! Really glad you guys were honest about the 25. It pushed me to have a look at the other store for the 40. Oh yeah, it was 150 so it was only 30 dollars more than the 25 plus the Samson MD1. Plus I found I had a long XLR cable in my stuff so I was able to take the one I bought back and it came out to be a wash. I paid 4 dollars.

    Pic of me and my wife at our last church. We just changed churches a month ago or so. Not playing there yet and I don't know if I will. It's a bigger church and the music Pastor is a full fledged music dude who was trained in music. Has kind of a unique style and may be a bit more particular about who plays up there. Although he does seem to involve people well. He invited me to come to a Saturday where the kind of try out new people and my plan is to play drums there. We will see. I feel like that i what God is calling me to do. I like the idea of not having to haul stuff around and learn a bunch of new songs on guitar or bass. Drums is a little less demanding on the mind, IMHO. Since I got all this other stuff going with this country band and recording my own stuff now.

    I'm not sure I'm unrusty enough for drums though. I just got a kit to practice on about 6 weeks ago and it has been a long time since I played regularly. But I feel like I'm getting better.

    Anyways... that was a lot of talking. Sorry. LOL.
     

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  2. ZenGuitarist

    ZenGuitarist Tele-Afflicted

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    I'm glad to hear that you returned the Rumble 25 and bought the Rumble 40. I think you'll be much happier with it. :)
     
  3. FortyEight

    FortyEight Tele-Meister

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    Yeah, I like it.

    One thing that is weird. I feel like my ears hear things a lot differently than other people. I like a really bassy not much treble in there sound. Just enough to hear the change of notes and such, but too much treble and I'm like blaaaaa. But then when I play with other people, seems like everyone plays their guitars so trebly I gotta dial in some treble on my bass cuz it just doesn't sound right, too smooth with the other trebly stuff. It blends better with some treble on.

    It was like this at my last church.

    Also last night at the practice was kind of like that. I'm gonna work more on the sound next time. We plugged my amp in to the pa and it was mostly the PA I could hear but it was distorting a bit. So I gotta dial in a better clean sound. I feel like I need the amp to come up a bit and the PA down. Plus we were just in a basement. It was a big basement though and had carpet on the ground so it was a decent place to play.

    I had a lot of fun. The guy I know has like the spitting image voice of Johnny Cash and he's always been a fan. And playing Folsom Prison was pretty freakin sweet. I didn't know I'd get into it as much as I did. LOL. It moved well and felt really good. And we didn't even have a drummer there last night. Booooo... LOL.
     
  4. Ronzo

    Ronzo Tele-Holic

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    @FortyEight, I’m really happy for you that you went with the Rumble 40. I’m happier still that you found a way to make the exchange for only $4 USD out of pocket - good job! :)

    Don’t worry. The XLR line out does NOT cut off the speaker. You can still use the 40 for an on-stage monitor for your bass. Just prop it up on a chair or something securely at an angle to aim it as directly at your ears as possible, do you can hear yourself clearly.

    The headphone Jack can be used for silent practice, but my living space doesn’t require that.

    I’m both a bassist and a guitarist, and I was surprised too at the sounds I could get out of the 40 with a guitar. I’m all set with guitar amps, but it might be helpful for people who are under financial stress now. If you do plug in a guitar, do it after turning down gain and volume. Your guitar will be much louder than your bass - it takes much less wattage to reproduce the guitar’s frequency range.

    I hope you find, as I have, that the days of the “big gig amp” are numbered (“What is hip today, might become passé.”). I get all I need for most of my playing at Church and at small venues from my Rumble 40... or even less. My Church uses the Behringer BDI21 for bass and the Behringer GDI21 for electric guitars, and the Behringer GI100 direct boxes for acoustic-electric guitars. Really inexpensive (about $30 USD each, new), and it gets everybody where they need to be tonally without blowing the ears out of the first couple of rows of pews. A BDI21 is the least expensive way I’ve found to protect against a bass amp failure on a gig, as long as the PA can handle a bass. You don’t need it now. But you may WANT one later, just to be safe.

    Not now, though. Enjoy your Rumble 40! And you surely made the right decision, based upon your needs as you stated them.

    All my best,
    Ronzo
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
  5. Ronzo

    Ronzo Tele-Holic

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    The fun is the most important part! ;)

    I’m the Music Director and sound guy at my Church. The once and future Choir Director, too. I think you’re probably right that the PA needs to be adjusted differently than it may have been. Don’t know, of course, what kind of capabilities that PA has, but here are some things I might suggest:
    • The channel you occupied in the PA had the gain set too high. Try lowering the gain so that the clip light on the channel lights up on very rare occasions, if at all.
    • If your PA has a low-cut feature on the channel you occupy, engage it. If you’ve heard of a high-pass filter on TalkBass (I’m Ronzo on that forum, too), that is the function of such a control on a PA’s channel. Most are set at 75 Hz or thereabouts. It’s there to reduce stage rumble on mics, but it also provides some protection for the PA’s speakers from low bass frequencies that those speakers may not be able to reproduce well. Also, set the channel EQ to flat, until you need fine-tuning of your position in the mix. Set pan to the center; bass frequencies are omnidirectional. Panning left or right is not really meaningful for live use.
    • On your Rumble 40, the greater preamp control can help you find your place in the band’s overall mix. Midrange frequencies, especially the low-mid range, are your friends. Especially versus the piano, organ, or synth, but also some guitar parts. Try this: LOWER your bass control on the 40 to the 9 or 10 o’clock position, and set low-mid to 2 o’clock. Use the high-mid to establish the note definition; 2 o’clock is a good starting point. Set the highs to about 10 o’clock to give the guitars some room to be heard.
    Finding the elusive place where each instrument and vocal in the band can be heard best by the audience is time-consuming, but absolutely worth it.
     
  6. FortyEight

    FortyEight Tele-Meister

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    I will try those things, but dang, the eq suggestions on my amp are not what I would think but do make sense when thinking about it. I will try it.

    And yeah, I think the speakers on the PA weren't able to handle real low. They looked like they were these stacks of 2 maybe 10" speakers. White cabinets. I was too busy playing to look at what exactly they were but now that I broke the ice I will start trying to dial in my tone. They practice on Tuesdays.

    I really appreciate the tips.

    One thing I kind of lack a little is a super deep understanding of all the tinier nuances of sound. My issue is I have focused on more than one instrument cuz I felt like when I came up playing it was hard to find good musicians so some of us that played seemed to try to learn more than one instrument in case we were needed. But then I do lack a little bit of DEEP knowledge of each thing. LOL. I was too busy writing music and playing to get into all the technical sound aspects but being older and wiser I'm trying to understand them better now. Cuz it's always good to know how to make it sound it's best if possible. Decent playing covers a lot of it but there's no doubt if the instrument isn't sitting well with the mix or whatever it kind of takes away from playing well.

    I mean I've always had my ear to what tones I like and what I think sounds good but I don't have a super deep technical knowledge of WHY that might be. LOL

    That was just a long way of saying thank you for taking the time to help me.

    Yeah, I'm not a real big fan of big amps for what I need. Plus I feel like most of the time when we had big amps back in the 90's it really was just overkill. Everyone trying to drown each other out. LOL. But we got better with that as time went on. My last amp I had was a classic 50 Peavey and I liked the sound. But even that is probably overkill. I've had my eyes on the classic 30s used but they are not cheap.

    Right now I have a Vox Cambridge 9159 with an 8" celestion I think sounds sweet. I think if I wanted a really deep metal sound it lacks that way but it's not something I do much of. But I got a song I want to get some pretty bassy guitar tones for.

    I will have to spend a little more time with the rumble 40 with my guitar to see how it sounds. That will be cool if I can dial in some tones I like from that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
  7. Ronzo

    Ronzo Tele-Holic

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    @FortyEight, the best reference I’ve found for this knowledge is the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Manual. It’s still in print, and still relevant. I sent a good friend a copy of it when he came down with COVID-19.

    Be warned: it’s a dense, deep dive. But reading it closely made me understand where instruments and vocals should be in a mix, how EQ works, etc.
     
  8. ZenGuitarist

    ZenGuitarist Tele-Afflicted

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    If you're talking about The Sound Reinforcement Handbook by Gary Davis and Ralph Jones then yeah, that's a really good book.
     
  9. haggardfan1

    haggardfan1 Friend of Leo's

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    Congratulations on your new amp.

    I've been using a Rumble 100 for Tele and bass now for over a year. I run my guitar pedalboard into the front and an XLR out to the board at larger gigs.

    Overall I've been really pleased with it. I traded in a bunch of old gear to get it, and the extra space in the house is nice too. Of course, things being what they are, I haven't used it nearly as much as I'd like.

    I inquired from several sources whether or not the XLR out is protected internally from phantom power--it is, by the way, like most modern amps--but I wanted to be certain.

    Along the way I also discovered that the direct out is post-everything. Although not advertised as such, it is essentially a speaker simulated direct out.
     
  10. Ronzo

    Ronzo Tele-Holic

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    This is the one I referred to:
    2D30163C-44D7-40D8-AE8C-7EB734898174.jpeg

    Yes, it appears to be the same book. :)
     
  11. ZenGuitarist

    ZenGuitarist Tele-Afflicted

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    Yes, that is the same book. That was a great recommendation to make to the OP. :)

    I was looking for my copy last night and couldn't find it. I'm going to take another look today.
     
  12. FortyEight

    FortyEight Tele-Meister

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    Thanks for the tips on the book!!!!

    haggardfan, I'm assuming you are talking about the third gen silver face rumble 100 eh? Does yours have a 15" speaker? My rumble 100 is kind of an oddball and not one I've seen another time. It's the second generation and is all black. It's got 2-10" speakers and is on casters. I only usually see them in 1-15" speaker. I love the sound of that one but I bet it weighs 40 pounds or more. Maybe 50. The rumble 40 is a freaking joy to carry around. LOL.

    I played a bit more of guitar through mine yesterday and was doing a quick comparison between my Vox Cambridge and I'll be honest, the rumble 40 seems to have a pretty good guitar sound going for it. It's really weird. I think it may lack a bit of high end headroom that my vox does but it's pretty close. The gain is a bit more velvetty when super cranked but the 40 comes close.

    I'm sort of dumbfounded at the sound I'm hearing so far in the 40 for guitar. But my 100, 2nd gen doesn't sound all that good for guitar. But those are completely different amps than the 3rd gen I think.

    I think on this one song I'm working on for recording I might try the direct out on the rumble 40 for my second guitar part and see how it sounds.... I may end up just using that as my main amp for both. LOL.

    I mean... don't a lot of people use a Fender bassman as a guitar amp? I know that's a completely different animal (tube right?) but I almost wonder if they planned these amps to be double duty amps. Cuz I'm not sure how many other bass amps can do that.
     
  13. Ronzo

    Ronzo Tele-Holic

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    Not sure about that. As I said, I’m well-fixed for guitar amps, lol. But you’re right about older Fender bass amps being well-suited for guitars.

    I own a 1973-74 Musicmaster Bass amp. 6AQ5 power tube pair plus a 12AX7 preamp tube, with the unusual phase inverter transformer used instead of a tube. I got it from a business acquaintance just before the big run-up in price when the guitar market realized that they sounded great at a low price. I had an EE that worked for the firm I was with do a recap on it for the price of two lunches after I bought the needed caps on Mouser. It was in rough shape, cosmetically, when I bought it, but the sound was wonderful. A new speaker grille cloth I gave it improved its looks, and the recap tightened the sound - too much, at first, to my ears. As I bought it, the old, leaky caps gave it a sweet, compressed flavor. After the recap, it was, and has remained, a sweet “Fender clean” amp until you go past 4 on the volume knob with humbuckers and 4.5 with single coils. After that, it doesn’t get louder, just deliciously dirtier. A great 12 watt amp, with cheap, easy-to-find power tubes. Still has the original 12AX7 Sylvania preamp tube.

    A friend in NY bought a 1959 Bassman and a Gibson ES-350 from another friend’s father for $500 USD in 1973. He sold the Gibson a few years later, but still has the Bassman (tweed, 4x10 combo) that he uses and gigs for bass and guitar. He’ll never sell it. Sounds incredible.

    That’s all old stuff - so-called “vintage” - though. In some ways, especially with solid state amps, I believe these are the good old days. Giggable equipment that doesn’t give you a hernia? Sign me up.

    Yeah, just enjoy it, @FortyEight. It’s all good! :)
     
  14. Ronzo

    Ronzo Tele-Holic

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    BTW, Rumble 100 v.3 combo has a 12” speaker; Rumble 200 v.3 combo has a 15” speaker; Rumble 500 v.3 combo has 2x10” speakers.
     
  15. FortyEight

    FortyEight Tele-Meister

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    Aaaah. 12" in the 100. Iiiiiinteresting. Seems like a good way to go.

    I like 10's. I actually didn't overly dislike the sound of the 25 with the 8" either. But for sure the 40 has Waaaaaaay more adjustability.
     
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