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Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by ndcaster, Mar 13, 2019.
With 25% unemployment in Greece you can't get a job even if you are a nuclear scientist.....
College and education assistance are a benefit for military service .
Raise a smart kid or get some well-off grandparents.
Just how much did you have to pay off?
The Dept. of Education released a study within the last 3 years that concluded too much easy money available in the system in the form of Pell Grants and student loans were detrimental and made education more expensive. Many schools, departments, and degree programs have popped up to harvest the money. After all, if they don't, someone else will (the tragedy of the commons).
The current system is also contrary to actual learning and development. The schools and departments within them have a priority on getting the butts in seats and to keep the grants, loans, and out of pocket payments flowing and that undercuts academic rigor in many schools. If the students complain, the powers force professors to back off so they don't have massive failures and drop outs.
The mentality that a college education is great for all is nonsense. Only about 25% of the jobs in the US require a degree and about 29% of the population has a degree. A college education is particularly less important for marginal, minimalist students doing just enough to get by in schools and degree programs with no rigor because all schools and all degree programs are not equal (but the lame ones still carry a high direct cost and opportunity cost). The diversion away from technical education and apprenticeships has been detrimental on many levels. Even during the depths of the recession in 2008-2011 the US still had about 1.5MM jobs that required technical skills and training above the level of unskilled and semi-skilled laborers that could not be filled. Meanwhile, many students with college degrees and graduate degrees were unemployed, and worse, unemployable.
We should probably shut down half the colleges (or half the degree programs) in the US. And we should certainly shut down 1/2 to 2/3 of the law schools in the US.
2026 is 18 years after the 2008 recession. Guess what happens to the stream of college-bound students? Colleges that can't get a quick handle on their operating expenses, student costs and ROI are going to be on the block.
Probably, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a big overcorrection on this in my lifetime.
I think Ken Lasaine has the bagpipe scene all sewn up around here.
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."
-- Henry VI, Part 2, Act IV, Scene 2
Realizing early the value of the education I was being given & realizing as well the value, at the time, of a degree in obtaining employment in my chosen profession, I became a happy college dropout &, for the most part, an auto–didact. I have had no trouble spending almost all my working life in exactly that field. I did have a student loan, which I paid off.
I suggest a large part of a solution to the problems under discussion resides in making intelligent, large–scale, wide–spread systemic changes to education & to the ways in which it is funded & conducted.
I know that it is universally misunderstood, but the 'liberal arts' degree is a fine thing to get. There are plenty of good jobs out there that require research, writing, and thinking. I know a good number of people who majored in things like 'Art History' and 'Gender Studies.' They all have good jobs and most not in their field of direct study. They also use the skills that they learned in college. In my experience the person with a bachelor degree that's flipping burgers would be in the same position no matter what they had majored in.
Also, the hardest working person I know is an Art Historian.
My wife and I gave our two sons an all expenses paid trip through college, both at prestigious universities. Their only requirement then was to do well. My older son continued through a PhD in Bioengineering. We appreciated that the state of Texas covered tuition and a small stipend, but we still covered his other costs there, books, car, and living expenses as well. We helped his fiancé (now wife) through her PhD. She had already amassed a load of debt from four years at University of Rochester and didn't need any more. Some kids marry into money. My son married into student loan debt. My wife and I see all of it as money well spent. But for all of this, there is an after graduation requirement that has nothing to do with pay back. The agreement is to pay it forward. My son and DIL understand that their children will go to the university of their choice and graduate debt free. My son the engineer thinks he's got it covered. His 7 year old daughter is probably smarter than he is. For sure she'll get a STEM scholarship to Stanford or Cal Tech. I told him I hope so, but what happens if she decides she decides on a major in fine arts at Brown? He'll pay for it. And he'll probably have to support her for the rest of her life.
there is no tuner for social graces... but, it would be cool if there was! When did you attend college and what was the debt you incurred. The costs for college shot through the roof and even state schools are no longer the bargain they were, say in the 70's and 80's and through the 90's... a year at UC Davis was 1200.00 a year in 1990. Today it is 14,000. Just tuition. With housing it is over 30K a year vs tops 3 back then. We saved for our kid's college based on predicted costs... and fell short by a factor of 8X which is how fast the tuitions and housing rose... so, I dig your solution, but the entire landscape changed dramatically. I'd bet you didn't know that, which makes sense. Things are tough and different for them than for us.
I agree that many liberal arts graduates have valuable skills, including research, writing and thinking. While some of them are able to earn enough money to pay their student loan debt, many do not. Many others are paying their student debt, but may struggle to do so for decades.
However, many graduates (and drop-outs) of liberal arts programs, as well as engineering, law and business school, do not have good research, writing and thinking skills, and are not particularly productive workers and good earners. Yet they have big student loan debt.
And then there are the people who have terrible research, writing and thinking skills, but have great persuasive abilities and sell lots of goods or services or both, and they make a lot of money. They incur huge debt and walk away from it. Some of them create a lot of work for the grinders like me.
I think we'd all like to live in a world of creative, kind and responsible people, and we turn to TDPRI to find them. Or so it seems.
The dangerous volume of commonsense in this thread leads me to type IBTL
You may be right but there are different odds for different degrees too.
Some of those liberal arts degrees are more popular, and if you're trying to get a job in that particular field there are fewer positions, and there are barriers to advantage/disadvantage certain people such as, " an unpaid internship is available and would really help you" in some of those fields.
But the fields that have less students, and more jobs, are also often really hard degree programs to get through, so the person who was going to end up flipping burgers was never going to get though the degree anyway.
AFAICT (I have a Computer Science degree), many of the STEM degrees are looked down on by younger people. Great way to make sure you stay single in your younger years.
I have nothing to say other than how interesting it is how out of touch some of these comments are. "I didn't need no loans" "I got a job and worked"
It's astounding how much of a disconnect there is between some of these older posters and the reality of the education system today. There is NO part time job that you can get that will even *start* to cover the immediate expenses of a four year degree.
$38k is either nothing or impossible, depending on your job prospects. There are more than a few kids who are walking out of school into six figure jobs. Others are lucky to get an internship for minimum wage. As to which of these you'll be when you enter school is a guess, but shouldn't be a random guess.
If your kid is really sure of who they are and their interests, taking on $38k isn't a big deal. It's a car. If they need time to mature and figure out how they're going to fit into society, it could be a huge and disappointing gamble.
Part of growing up is learning how to be realistic. Sometimes one makes unrealistic plans. It's unfortunate when the result looms over the next stage of your life. I had high college debt when I graduated, even though I worked throughout and lived with my parents. I made mistakes, took wrong directions, and had to reinvent myself a couple of times. It took me a long time to get rid of the debt, but I've never wanted for at least a decent paying job.
I have real empathy for the kids who seem to be held so stringently to unrealistic levels of self- and circumstantial awareness that they can't make the same mistakes. They're really coming into a world that is indifferent to their well-being.
I should remind all of the universities shut down/cutting back their liberal arts programs to expand their STEM programs that the students registering the for STEM fields in record numbers look down on those programs of study.
My first year of college was 1969 at the University of Houston. I took 17 credit hours that cost me $117 for tuition and fees. I don't recall how much my books were. I started out in a dorm without a car.
I was in a cover band in high school and saved for college. I was living at home so my expenses were low. I managed to save enough $$ to pay for 2.5 years of tuition/books/rent/etc.
It was a different time. My first apartment, second year of college, was $120/month divided four ways. This included utilities. (It was a giant roach hotel, but that's just Houston, right?)
My three step kids had the benefit of choosing their biological grandparents carefully. The GPs kicked in major cashola for the grandkids. Not that my wife and I were poor, but college is really expensive now. I came out of college without any debt. The kids did too for which I am thankful.