Cognitive dissonance: question

Discussion in 'Tab, Tips, Theory and Technique' started by P Thought, Oct 21, 2012.

  1. P Thought

    P Thought Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    I'm up early as usual, canoodling around with my guitar in D, strumming I, IV, vi, ii, etc., in no particular order, and then for some reason, when I played a Bb chord--not sure why I did that--it sounded great in with the others. Why would that be? It doesn't fit in the key, really, does it?

    Now as I type this, I've already forgotten the context: which chord I came from and which I went back to. I'll go try it again while you guys compose your answers. ;)
     
  2. andrewsadlon

    andrewsadlon Tele-Meister

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    Beats me. What is that like a major flat VI... I'll have to try it out... Bb D and F are the tones so I'd say maybe just because D is the third of Bb?
     
  3. Jupiter

    Jupiter Telefied Silver Supporter

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    Maybe because you modulated to Dmin.
     
  4. P Thought

    P Thought Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    I tried it some more, in and out this time with my cageD scales, and it still sounds kind of good to me. Perhaps I've developed "weird ear" and should see my doctor.

    Or maybe it's one of those situations where the chord I know as Bb major is functioning right now as some other chord, one that is compatible with the key of D.
     
  5. jazztele

    jazztele Poster Extraordinaire

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    Full context would help.

    Songs need not stay diatonic. Actually, I greatly prefer when they don't.
     
  6. MichaelAa

    MichaelAa Tele-Holic

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    As Jeff says, it`s all about context. Good voiceleading is also essential, and maybe most important; melody.
     
  7. Zap-O!

    Zap-O! Former Member

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    Hey!

    Bb is the tritone substitute for the double dominant in D major. It's often used in Blues and Rockabilly!

    Ex.:

    D | D | D | D |
    G | G | D | D |
    A | Bb A | D | A |

    All of the chords could be dominant sevenths of course....

    It's used to get a pull to the fifth chord in a progression.
     
  8. P Thought

    P Thought Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    Interesting, and thank you. I do tend toward what some people call "honky-tonk badonkadonk". Maybe that's why my ear liked it so much. So, would the major flat VI, as andrewsadlon says, tend to work thataway in any key?


    Ah (oh ho hee hee), I see now how sometimes people have snuck a C into my E key.
     
  9. Zap-O!

    Zap-O! Former Member

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    Yeah, that major flat VI (going to the V) works in all keys. C in the key of E is the same principle.

    Try it in a minor blues also, and you will recognize the sound! You've heard it many times before, I'm sure!
     
  10. P Thought

    P Thought Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    It's kind of fun when I put it between the vi and the I, as well: C#m/C/E




    Edit: In G this morning, yummy Eb. I guess I should figure out the double-dominants themselves--would that be better?--so I'm not always substituting? This is fun, though!
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2012
  11. Jack S

    Jack S Friend of Leo's

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    The pattern is common to lots of music. In Elvis' Let's Play House you have the end of the phrase go from B7 to C7, back the B7, then E. There are lots of other blues based songs that do this. Another example of a C chord in an E Major scale piece is in Carl Perkins' Honey Don't.
     
  12. slowpinky

    slowpinky Tele-Afflicted

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    Why does the bVI sound good? Context is helpful , but its a great substitute , as Zap -o points for the sub or pre -dominant chord - Gm, Em7b5 for instance.
    If you are thinking dissonance- consider common tones - the tonic D is the root note of D - but becomes the 5th on a G major or minor - and the min 3rd on Bm and the Maj 3rd on Bb! - its actually more dissonant with the V chord as a sus4 than with the bVI...
     
  13. Larry F

    Larry F Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    This could be thought of as something in classical music theory called mode mixture. Here, mode does not mean dorian, phrygian, etc., but, rather, major mode to minor mode. In D minor, Bb is VI, as someone pointed out above.
     
  14. andrewsadlon

    andrewsadlon Tele-Meister

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    Ohhhhhh. Now i get it. This is awesome.
     
  15. jazztele

    jazztele Poster Extraordinaire

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    Yep...modal interchange...don't play jazz without it...
     
  16. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    :D
     
  17. Zap-O!

    Zap-O! Former Member

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    The theory behind the major flat VI (going to the V):

    It's called tritone substitution, that is, you can interchange two dominant seventh chord with a distance of a tritone (or flat five / sharp 11)

    So look at the G7 > g - b - d - f

    Now look at the Db7 > db - f - ab - cb

    Actually cb is the same note as b. So in both chords there is the same dissonant intervall of "b - f" or "f - b". These notes build up a tension The resolution of that is b is going to c and f is going to e.

    That's why both chords (G7 and Db7) can go to C!

    Now in the key of D major the Bb7 is the substitute for E7 (going to A). E7 is called the double dominant, because it is the dominant chord of the dominant chord in the key of D.


    PS: I hope these explanations are making some sense. I'm from germany and to explain that jazz theory stuff in english is hard ;-)
     
  18. ewiz

    ewiz TDPRI Member

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    Every here has a great approach to the beautiful flat 6 chord!

    Checkout some of the Neapolitan approaches from classical music theory. Kurt Rosenwinkel has adopted some of these theories in his compositions ( he's also a jazz guitar guru).
     
  19. seekir

    seekir Tele-Holic

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    Emaj>Cmaj Also the initiates the progression In Goldfinger. Don't think that song starts in Emaj though, E-minor verse with a G#min chorus? Very dramatic changes, at least to my ear.

    I've also been under the impression that a flat V-chord (or sharp IV chord) is often used as a "passing" chord in blues-based progressions, especially in the pre-turnaround V-IV transistion. Actually, aren't flat or sharp passing chords leading to any of the three chords in blues pretty ubiquitous in those songs? Maybe you aren't playing the "wrong" chord in question as a brief passing or leading chord?
     
  20. ewiz

    ewiz TDPRI Member

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    As long as its brief and continues it's motion, whether its ascending or descending. There's a bunch of blues transitions that are pretty cool. Chick has some great chord progressions in one of his blues tunes.

    Cheers
     
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