Clear Nitro Run

Discussion in 'Finely Finished' started by 650thunderbird, Jan 21, 2020.

  1. 650thunderbird

    650thunderbird Tele-Meister Silver Supporter

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    I went a bit heavy spraying clear on the upper bout. Can any of the nitro gurus tell me if this is a problem that needs fixing, or do I simply keep adding coats of clear until it evens out?

    Also, at what point will the binding not have a ledge that can be felt with the finger? Is there a special way of spraying the binding?

    Thanks in advance.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  2. EsquireOK

    EsquireOK Friend of Leo's

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    This is a case where you should probably sand now, before going any farther. Then apply more clear. Dust the clear on to build quick drying coats. Flood at the end, as your final coat before polishing. If done well, you can go straight to polishing, or polish after only a minimal wet sanding.
     
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  3. tamer_of_banthas

    tamer_of_banthas Tele-Meister

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    that does not look bad at all my friend. i would just add another coat or two and call it good
     
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  4. Freeman Keller

    Freeman Keller Friend of Leo's

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    When I shoot color I level sand it at the last coat and then start my clear. I shoot 3 coats a day, when I have 3 or 6 on I will start level sanding the clear with 320. I want the clear thick enough to not sand back thru to the color. I'll put on anywhere from 12 to 15 coats of clear before the final sanding and buff.

    You will also be told that it is not necessary to sand between coats (or at the end for that matter). I'm not good enough for that, I sand.
     
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  5. Freeman Keller

    Freeman Keller Friend of Leo's

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    I don't agree. I want a perfectly smooth glossy finish with no orange peel.

    As far as the binding is concerned, the combination of 12 or so coats of clear plus sanding as you apply them will result in no ridge where you scraped or masked.
     
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  6. tamer_of_banthas

    tamer_of_banthas Tele-Meister

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    copy that. well you definitely have already put more work into your slightly flawed finish than i did on my recent body refin. i'm very lazy when it comes to sanding between coats.

     
  7. dogmeat

    dogmeat Tele-Afflicted

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    looks like the mix was too thick... or was it rattle can? I you are spraying with a gun it needs more thinner. or, if it's a "system" paint, use a slower thinner, something designed for use in hotter weather to slow down the drying time. in any case you need to sand that back a bit. be careful and stop if there is any sign of color coming up when you sand.
     
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  8. 650thunderbird

    650thunderbird Tele-Meister Silver Supporter

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    Do you mean I should sand back the sides, being careful not to sand the binding that has been sprayed?
     
  9. 650thunderbird

    650thunderbird Tele-Meister Silver Supporter

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    Rattle can, but it's only that part that's affected. Thinking about it, I did go over that section differently to the rest, I don't know what I was trying to achieve :confused:
     
  10. jrblue

    jrblue Tele-Afflicted

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    Between the blurry pics and the description, I'm not sure I see any great problem. I always sand at one or more intermediate points in building up a nitro finish. I hate sanding, but I do it, carefully and patiently, because I find that trying to build up and melt the finish into real smoothness requires a thicker coat than I want, so I remove material to achieve flatness rather than simply building more up to do so. But let's face it: most people can't wait to get done, sand before the finish is dry enough to really do it well, spray too much too soon, etc., and then do a crap sanding job on a soft finish. But to me, anyway, nothing beats the kind of special luster you get with a good, thin finish that has been sanded at one or more points before final coating/polishing. As far as I can see, the OP guitar needs sanding.
     
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  11. Vibrolux59

    Vibrolux59 Tele-Meister

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    Along with sanding between coats as suggested by Freeman you should try warming those rattle cans up in a bowl of hot tap water. Not only will it atomize and flow nicer warm but it will increase the pressure in the can. Old model car builder trick from the '60s.
     
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  12. 650thunderbird

    650thunderbird Tele-Meister Silver Supporter

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    I see a few saying to wet sand. What grade of sand paper is recommended?
     
  13. telepraise

    telepraise Tele-Holic

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    If you're referring to the little bead/droplet, it can be cut off with a single edge razor, then block sand to level. If you are talking about the general orange peel texture of the entire surface:
    1. At this point, you definitely need to level sand. Use a cork block or something similar. If you want to play it safe, wet sand gently with 600 grit until you get it flat (use mineral spirits to be safe in case you sand through), then recoat and sand with finer grades.
    2. Your finish is not flowing out as it should. If you're using rattle cans I can't advise you on how to achieve that. If this is off a gun, use more flow enhancer, lay on full wet coats, and spray with the surface level
     
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  14. Freeman Keller

    Freeman Keller Friend of Leo's

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    When you have 3 to 6 coats of clear it will be thick enough to lightly sand with 320 or 400 grit paper. Don't start wet sanding yet, save that for your final coats. When you start wet sanding it should be smooth and level - all of that orange peel will be gone. You'll start your wet sanding at 600 or 800 and go up from there.

    This guitar has the color but no clear

    IMG_3364.JPG

    Clear is on and its getting wet sanded

    IMG_3390.JPG

    Buffed

    IMG_3393.JPG
     
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  15. eallen

    eallen Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

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    I never sand between coats except to lightly remove a run, which is a rare occurence when shooting light lacquer coats. Cans are a bit more challenge since they don't have great volume control.

    As for the binding hump, it will wet sand out after your final coat without a problem. Whether you remove the material hump during your coats, or after, you are removing the same amount of material.

    I also start my wet sanding at 1000 grit max and stop at 1500. You may have to go higher depending on your available buffing options.

    Look forward to seeing the continued product!

    Eric
     
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  16. Lowerleftcoast

    Lowerleftcoast Tele-Holic

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    This.

    Old automotive industry, nitro from before epa standards. Three coats scuff sand. Three coats scuff sand. Repeat. Usually this will take care of areas like the binding area. You don't want to have the finish move to each side creating a line in the binding area. You want that area to fill in as you go. Scuff sanding is just roughing up the surface so the next coat can melt into the finish easier. It is not sanding, just scuffing. The scuffing is light so there is not much chance to go through the finish. Just make sure you don't sand thru the clear on the first scuffing. Scuff sanding helps to keep the finish even and helps to give a rough surface so it reduces the chance for runs. The nitro needs a good bite on the previous coat so absolutely do not use finer than 600 grit. Of course you need to clean and tack before you spray. If you think you need to level after several coats do so, then continue with the scuff sanding. When you are ready to color sand you can start with around 600 to 800 and proceed to the finer grits. Then buff.

    Scuff sanding is usually done with used sandpaper.
     
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  17. eallen

    eallen Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

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    Nitro melts into itself so it does not need any sanding for it to be prepped for the next coat. Sanding will not improve it's ability to melt in either.

    If you are going to start wet sanding with 600 or even 800 make sure you have enough coats built up to avoid getting into you color coats.

    Sanding can also cause contamination if you do not clean it well enough afterwards. I quit using water to wet sand years ago and move to naptha for the added benefits without the risk of water swelling holes and lifting your finish. It also cuts faster than water allowing you to start with finer grits

    Eric
     
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  18. moosie

    moosie Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    I'm no expert, but I don't sand any clear coats except the last. A small run or two? Orange peel? Just keep going with light passes. Then on the final coat, add a bit of retarder. If rattle can, use Behlen's Blush Eraser instead, which is clear + retarder. The solvents reflow all layers into one, each time. The retarder slows dry time so it has a chance to flow out level.
     
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  19. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Platinum Supporter

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    1. The finish looks like it ALL has been sprayed very heavy. Normally, I recommend each coat be applied VERY thin by making 3 EXTREMELY thin passes. Passes al barely more than a fog coat, and a single coat should not cover completely or flow out, Melting/flowing starts at about the third coat, whether color or clear. But what I see is fairly heavy orange peel, which should never occur.

    DON'T sand mid-system orange peel (i.e. don't san between coats, ever!) except to fix individual small runs, if any. But I see a system that will require final wet sanding to fix the entire thing.

    You asked what grit to use for wet sanding - did you apply the whole system on scrap before starting on the real thing to refine your spray technique? That's the second most important thing you can do.

    The first is read and understand ALL the procedures necessary in finishing before you buy any products Trying to learn typical repair methods mid-job can be a disaster. I suggest you read all of the finishing instructions on the reranch site and spnd a few hours reading through system recommendations posted here.

    How many coats of each product (specifically - brand and product name) have you applied, what sealers, stains/dyes and fillers did you use, and what was the temperature and humidity? This is all critically important, as some products dry VERY slowly even when applied correctly, and if too thick may never dry properly.

    Conventional lacquer do not "cure" - they dry ONLY by solvent evaporation. And solvents have trouble evaporating and can be trapped in overly thick coatings.

    Did you try to apply each coat so it covered and flowed out completely? If so you likely have an unrecoverable problem. I hate saying that, but if multiple coats are too thick - especially with certain products - they literally CAN'T be sanded smooth.

    2. Unfortunately, you can't add finish to the level of binding. Each coat of properly applied lacquer is only about a half-thousandth of an inch thick when dry, so if your binding ridge is 1/32" you'd need roughyl 31 mils - or 64 coats - of lacquer to bring it level.

    Binding is scraped flush with a cabinet scraper BEFORE finishing - not after. This isn't a finishing procedure, but it is a normal part of guitar construction. Cabinet scrapers and burnishers ( used to "turn" the edge on the scraper, which is essentially a thick sheet of steel used as a hand-held, frameless plane) are two of the most common tools used in construction of guitars with binding - or preparing bound "kit" components prior to finishing.

    At this point you may just have to learn how to prepare and use a cabinet scraper, practice on a junk body, and try to scrape at enough of an angle to not dig into the finish - which will still need wet sanding.

    It may be a futile exercise, but if you end up having to strip it and do it over (keeping coats thin - and not starting ANY finishing until you have practiced the whole process and refined it - plus learned how to and completed scraping of the binding) at least you'll know how to do everything before you start again.

    I'm not trying to be hard on you and help as much as possible. It probably sounds mean, but 'm being as gentle as possible - there are two issues at hand (binding that should have been handled first, and what appears to be thick coating) - so it's a bit hard to explain them in sweet terms. Sorry!
     
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  20. 650thunderbird

    650thunderbird Tele-Meister Silver Supporter

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    Thanks to all who contributed to this thread.

    I decided to wet sand and used 600, 800 and 1200 grits. Here is the result so far:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I have ordered 1500 and 2000 grits plus some fine polishing compounds. I'm going to try and get away with the current amount of coats.
     
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