Class B fixed bias…

[peteb]

Uhhh. Leo did not design a single silver panel amplifier.

The Silverface amps are the blackface amps which Leo was the main designer. Imagine the SF amps without the TR, PR, SR, DR etc.

Leo designed a new line of amps at least once per decade every decade from the 40’s until the 70’s.

40’s Woodie, 50’s Tweed, 60’s Black panel and the 70’s Music Man.

Every time, world class clean tones were the foundation.

The clean tone was Leo’s life blood. He built an empire from it.

Ed Jahns, otoh . . .

The Ed Jahns musical Instrument company has a nice ring to it.

 

[hepular]

The Silverface amps are the blackface amps which Leo was the main designer. Imagine the SF amps without the TR, PR, SR, DR etc.

Leo designed a new line of amps at least once per decade every decade from the 40’s until the 70’s.

40’s Woodie, 50’s Tweed, 60’s Black panel and the 70’s Music Man.

Every time, world class clean tones were the foundation.

The clean tone was Leo’s life blood. He built an empire from it.




The Ed Jahns musical Instrument company has a nice ring to it.

1. ok, sure. granted.
2. Look at your third line: 70s Music Man is not a Fender Product. So, refining the claim would involve determining what design elements change the 70s Fender amplifiers from the the pre-CBS ones. This distinction formed the ENTIRE rationale for boosting the desireability of pre-CBS products, and, in short, it boils down to, the late-60s and early 70s 'Fenders' are substantially different beasties. Subsequently, of course, vintage dealers with product to move built the notion that they were basically the same, especially if you "blackfaced" them. Which gives the game away: if they were the same, they'd be the same. So who designed the differences?

 

[King Fan]

This argument is getting old. The thread started with a simple question about Class B amps, and several smart people helped build a picture of how MM amps accepted somewhat more class B distortion in a trade-off for efficient, inexpensive power. Then one member came in to argue that MM amps weren't seeking more power or efficiency, but were seeking cleans. IIRC, that discussion rested on things like ads, that person's take on how amps, voltages, current, bias, etc. 'sound', and Leo's reputation for wanting to build clean amps. None of that is 'evidence' -- MM amps are no more clean or dirty for any of that.

Ads need no debunking -- um, they're ads. As for our personal understanding of EE, I read plenty of these threads where most folks can't buy into somebody's idiosyncratic understanding. I respect each person's ideas as their own belief; that doesn't make 'em evidence or fact.

But the "Leo loved cleans" argument may be the weakest. We hear it all the time -- yes, he was building for country and lap steel in the early days, and, yes, Don Rich and many other players took Fender cleans and made them famous. But even if we think Leo was so boringly one-dimensional in his goals, he also ran a highly successful company for a whole human generation, as lap steel country gave way to rock 'n' roll, and almost all his amps became famous for some beautiful distortion. If Bakersfield and the Twin Reverb represent the apogee of 'clean Fender fame', I could spend an hour listing Fender amps and players that are even more famous for wonderful Fender dirt. Leo's greatest success, building Fender itself, disproves the idea he only built 'clean' amps. Of course, as beautifully ironic as that may be, the 'what Leo intended' argument has nothing to do with the original question.

 

[sds1]

Hot take: Fender amps aren't even that clean. They're not even the cleanest of all guitar amps.

 

[King Fan]

Hot take: Fender amps aren't even that clean. They're not even the cleanest of all guitar amps.

You said it in way fewer words than I did — but heh, we can agree that’s not difficult!

 

[peteb]

Fender amps aren't even that clean.

Are you serious ?


The twin reverb defines clean electric guitar tone.

 

[hepular]

Are you serious ?


The twin reverb defines clean electric guitar tone.

Yep. As shown on Nevermind the Bollocks. Or the first few Pretenders records.

Perhaps the 135 watt Twins do, BUT the Peavey 400 is a better candidate, or maybe a Roland Jazz Chorus.

but this is the topic of another thread: defining 'clean' guitar tone. Because somehow i doubt that all of us have the same tone in mind.

 

[peteb]

The twin reverb is the apex of tube guitar amplifier design.


The twin reverb is known as the king of clean.


I suppose that makes Leo the king of clean guitar amp designers.


When he was designing amps at Music Man he was trying to improve on the twin reverb.

That is a pretty tall task and I think the consensus is that the music man amps are not better than the fender amps. The BF/SF are considered the best amps of all time.

And they all have that classic fender clean tone, even the champ, as they all share the same pre amp.



And

Fenders’s clean may not be the cleanest of all, it is the best sounding clean.


On MM Leo went for cleaner and it turned out that going cleaner than BF/SF was not better.


Fender carried on in Fender’s ways. He shared his play book. They also tried to improve on the twin reverb by going cleaner. The result was the UL twin reverb. We all know how that went.



And you don’t design an amp with just power in mind. Amp designers design amps of all different power levels. It is not power rating alone that sells amps. It is the sound and the tone and the feel of the amps that sell amps. The MM amps designs on clean tone were a bridge too far.

 

[mrriggs]

And they all have that classic fender clean tone, even the champ, as they all share the same pre amp.

Huh?!? Champ, clean? Once again...

 

[hepular]

The twin reverb is the apex of tube guitar amplifier design.


The twin reverb is known as the king of clean.


I suppose that makes Leo the king of clean guitar amp designers.


When he was designing amps at Music Man he was trying to improve on the twin reverb.

That is a pretty tall task and I think the consensus is that the music man amps are not better than the fender amps. The BF/SF are considered the best amps of all time.

And they all have that classic fender clean tone, even the champ, as they all share the same pre amp.



And

Fenders’s clean may not be the cleanest of all, it is the best sounding clean.


On MM Leo went for cleaner and it turned out that going cleaner than BF/SF was not better.


Fender carried on in Fender’s ways. He shared his play book. They also tried to improve on the twin reverb by going cleaner. The result was the UL twin reverb. We all know how that went.



And you don’t design an amp with just power in mind. Amp designers design amps of all different power levels. It is not power rating alone that sells amps. It is the sound and the tone and the feel of the amps that sell amps. The MM amps designs on clean tone were a bridge too far.

Nope. Ain't nothing cleaner than a Peavey 400.
But, dude, enough with the unverifiable passive-voice claims that slide by gross inaccuracies.
Leo Fender didn't "share his playbook." he was paid millions for the IP and bound to a non-compete clause that he veered eve4r-so-close to breaking.
The late 70s amps are NOT, as has been proven repeatedly, ultralinear. But beyond that. your claim falls apart again, because the reason, allegedly, people don't like them is that they are TOO clean. Which would mean that someone not named Fender designed the cleanest fender

 

[sds1]

The twin reverb is the apex of tube guitar amplifier design.

????

 

[King Fan]

Dang, what was I thinking? When the "ignore" button fails to quiet a thread prolonged by one person's baldly unsupported pronouncements, I gotta remember to use the old reliable "unwatch" button.

 

[sds1]

Dang, what was I thinking? When the "ignore" button fails to quiet a thread prolonged by one person's baldly unsupported pronouncements, I gotta remember to use the old reliable "unwatch" button.

You'll be back.

 

[peteb]

Leo in the 1940’s crafted with his own hands the clear bright single coil pickups with individual pole pieces that are standard to this day.

In 1950 Leo developed a new type of guitar, the electric solid body guitar to be louder, clearer and brighter than the muddy sounding acoustic electrics of the day.

The guitar featured materials and a scale length to accentuate the brighter sounds of the new guitar. Leo placed his pickup in a unique location, angled by the bridge to capture the brilliant tone near the bridge.

By the early 1950’s Leo was producing amps preferred by professionals favoring the bright and clear tone of Fender amps. In 1952 Leo launched the first hi fi guitar amp featuring treble and bass controls, the Twin amp.

They say “Leo never thought they would turn is amps up to the point of distortion.” But they did.

 

[elpico]

It would be nice if this place had something like the "community notes" feature, or like a "quarantine" button or something so we could place a useful warning to others: "waste lies buried here. turn back."

If you've ended up here by searching for the original question, my condolences.