Clapperboard or similar for collabs?

In Reaper, I’ve been adding the click as a separate track. When I render my stems or rough mix, I render the click as a separate .mp3 with the same start time. Then, my collaborators can add both files to their DAW, mix in the click to taste, and everything stays in sync.

Our keyboard player did something tricky when he sent me his parts to Dangerous Type. The keyboard tracks on that tune begin with a long silence, so he included the first measure of rhythm guitar at the head of each of his stems to help me sync it up.

 

If there is a short, sharp click at the start of every track, it's very easy to see in a DAW – or video editor – whether everything is accurately aligned. Also, if a collaborator is providing a solo, for instance, it makes life a lot easier if they send you a sound file that starts at the beginning. While it may seem counter intuitive to send someone a file that has two minutes of silence on the front end, it saves a lot of guesswork when it comes to compiling everything.

There are a lot of videos around that give the impression that remote collaboration via streaming broadband is easy, whereas it's almost impossible! The latency you mention isn't even constant, as data is sent over the Internet in packets, the arrival time of which is not guaranteed. A musician I know worked out one way to do to. This is what James 'Foz' Foster told me:

Hi simon I tried everything and the simple answer is it's impossible unless you have a dedicated super fast fibre optic cable and this still does not overcome how long it takes to get around the internet. you can overcome latency by the first person (drummer) playing to a click, and each subsequent musician only monitoring the person before them, so the latency is passed down the chain, bass listens to drummer, guitar listens to bassist, vocals listen to guitar, then vocals streams. with this it's important to record without visuals as there is no way for them to be in synch by the end of the chain, so very messy and difficult. What most people are doing is each person plays live and films to click track, these videos are then synched in a video/audio program and then streamed, so not live but played as live, this is how the BBC orchestras and choirs have done it and how we did our lockdown videos. in my experience, all the online programs for jamming seem useless.​

 

It doesn't really matter how the click is made. It could be a finger click. As long as it is audible, and visible, it will assist sync. I don't know if this relates to your situation, but where I have collaborators submitting video as well as audio from a DAW, I ask them to make sure the backing track is picked up by the camcorder. That way, I have an unambiguous way of checking sync. Once everything is lined up in the video editor, I can unlink the audio and video tracks, before deleting the camcorder audio, leaving the DAW mix as the only audio.

 

There is a whole level of detail I'm not getting here. Let's start with basics. What computer (platform/processor/RAM) are you using, please? What DAW? What audio interface?

Also: are you trying to get video in sync with your audio, or is it just that there is a sync problem when you are recording overdubs? Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're asking here.

We are in different parts of the world, so I'm going to bed and will re-visit this tread sometime tomorrow. Therefore, no rush to answer.

 

Thank you for the reply. Don't worry, I'll stick with this until you are where you want to be. Most of what I know has been learned from others, so I should give a little back. I see you're running LPX (Logic Pro X) on a Mac. This guy is a real guru: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkPFhho9dmkx6QhDaqrewoA but you'll be there a long time if you work through all his tutorials, so let's address your immediate problems right here.

We're in danger of mixing up two related topics here, so for clarity, I'm going to address them separately. So that we don't confuse each other, let's come up with a couple of definitions:

1) Latency is a delay caused by the time it takes the system to process audio.
2) Sync (synchronisation) is a working method we need to follow, so that when we play back the entire arrangement, all the parts are correctly aligned in time.

As you've discovered, if we haven't got latency under control, we'll struggle to achieve sync because our recordings are slightly out of time. Let's see if we can fix that first.

Are you checking Low Latency Mode when you record? If not, even the most powerful computer will exhibit latency, because it's devoting significant system resources to multitrack playback and plug-in processing. Conversely, you need to uncheck Low Latency Mode when you mix, because some plug-ins are disabled to achieve the lowest latency.

If you haven't been using LLM, I suggest you do a quick 'click' test with it engaged to see if it solves all your latency problems.

 

If it doesn't, you probably need to optimise your audio preferences. This is not something to be done casually, because if you change some of these settings without understanding what they do, you can end up with much worse latency than when you started. also, you may develop a nasty rash. (OK, I made that bit up...)

Below is a screen shot of my LPX Audio Preferences. Although yours will probably end up slightly different, I'll talk you through each field.

Core Audio: You definitely need that enabled.

Output Device/Input Device: These are set to whatever audio interface is connected to your system. It's a good idea to check the manufacturer's web site to make sure you are using the right software for your interface when you install it.

I/O Buffer Size: This basically sets how long the computer needs to 'think about' streaming out multiple channels of audio. You'll know if you've set it too low because you'll start to get audible glitches and pops during playback. So if 128 doesn't work for you, try 256.

Recording Delay: Best to leave this alone!

Processing threads: As many as you've got showing on the pulldown menu, but best to quit other applications when working in LPX, so you're devoting all resources to audio.

Process Buffer Range: Pretty much the same routine as buffer size.

For the rest of the settings, you may care to read this: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT203930 but I'd turn ReWire off unless you are certain you want to integrate with another DAW (EG - using the synths in Reason at the same time.)


Hope this helps. Please let me know how you get on.

 

Curious - Are you trying to collaborate live, on the fly? Or sharing files? I've just recently been successful in getting JackTrip working between me and a friend about 600 miles away. Latency is not terrible (30ms or so, it's built for low latency), and I hope to do more with it. Setup and debug was a PITA, but I'll be doing more with it soon with others. Don't mean to steer the thread off course. I agree that a separate track is what's needed, but it must be kept separate from getting into the mix - so: headphones only for that track, and if you're using speakers anywhere that end will need two hardware audio out channels.

 

I saw it was GB and because it doesn't have a low latency mode, you'll likely see some problems that might need some tinkering.

I would Configure Track Header and add Lock mode (something like "freeze" in LPX), and lock all existing tracks to see if that makes a difference when recording a new track.

When I've done these things, I send a scratch track that's recorded to a click with an audible count-in. I just ask for the new track back and then align things by eye/ear. I'll send out a remix to other folks that haven't contributed yet if it helps get them going or they may need more than the scratch to fill in their parts. But, regardless, they get a scratch or mix and just send back their part, and only one person has to align things.

P.S. might have mentioned this, but I mostly grew up around Hbg PA - didn't get there until 1st grade (dad in USAF), but graduated from what was then known as "cow valley" .

 

Nothing wring with old Macs. Mine's 10 years old. I think you've grasped the issues completely. The latency within your system is a constant, so if you realign your tracks to get perfect sync at the start, they should be in the same relationship at the end, time-wise.

 

You're welcome.

I just tried to download the latest version of GarageBand to see if there was any way I could help you get that latency down even further, and discovered it will only run on the new macOS 11, Big Sur! It would have been nice of Apple to wait until the audio interface manufacturers had released software drivers for Big Sur first... Fortunately, I have an older copy, so I'll take a look when I have time to reboot under my previous OS.

EDIT: I think you're absolutely correct. I can find no way to adjust the buffer size etc in GarageBand. Oh well, you already know the workaround.

 

Short of spending big, the best way to collaborate is by having identical setups at each end then send each other project files to work on independently. It’s hard to collaborate ‘live’ over a public internet connection unless you put in quite pricey gear at each end to avoid latency. The further apart geographically the harder it is.

Using Google Drive for syncing each location works really well and is free up to 15GB.

 

I’ve been using DAW software for a while (decades), cakewalk Pro, GarageBand, Logic and Reaper. Since I’m collaborating with a buddy of mine who’s on a Windows machine and I’m on MacOS we needed something cross compatible. We landed on Reaper.

I’ve never had an issue synching tracks on Reaper but you need to know the BPM in order to import the track and have it line up. I’ve even taken some ancient projects that were done in the 90’s on some unknown DAW, imported the tracks, figured out the BPM and then remixed them with improved parts. Best $67 I’ve ever spent.

There is a learning curve and it is endlessly customizable which leads to rabbit holes but the upside is that for me it is the defacto DAW software to use.

I was actually talking to a buddy of mine who has a recording studio in town and he’s moving from Logic to Reaper as well.