Circle Fretting System (CFS)

Discussion in 'Tele-Technical' started by elihu, Sep 14, 2020.

  1. elihu

    elihu Poster Extraordinaire

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    while browsing on Reverb.com I noticed some Fender "type" guitars from Fujigen are advertised as being CFS models. What is this Circle Fretting System design feature and is it a good thing or not? I confess I've never heard of it before today and I've been playing guitars for a long time.
     
  2. deytookerjaabs

    deytookerjaabs Friend of Leo's

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    The idea is you keep the exact scale length and thus fret spacing per string as the strings "fan out" a bit towards the edge of the board.

    It does not improve intonation whatsoever (regardless of claims) but it is a neat concept in terms of playability.
     
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  3. gregulator450

    gregulator450 Tele-Afflicted

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    https://fgnguitarsusa.com/pages/about-us

    This has a drawing and explanation of the circle fret vs conventional fret installation. I don't know that I understand the math behind it yet as this is the first I have heard of it.
     
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  4. Rusty Shackelford

    Rusty Shackelford TDPRI Member

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    Sounds like a load of BS why would the angle of the string to the fret being exactly 90degrres matter for playing?

    "C.F.S. is a solution of fretting on a traditional guitar and bass and it offers clearer articulation and tones which give dimension when you play a chord and also cuts through the mix when you play single notes"

    A solution to what problem? How? "Tones which give dimension when you play a chord" sounds like pulling marketing verbiage out of their anus
     
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  5. tfarny

    tfarny Friend of Leo's

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    I have an FGN T-type with the CFS. I think it's one of very few in existence in the USA. Fantastic guitar, plays great and sounds very in tune up and down the fretboard. If I really squint my eyes hard I can see that the frets are in a little bit of a smiley face shape as opposed to straight across - but if I hadn't read their ad copy (after purchase) I would not have known anything was odd.

    Personally I cannot imagine how it is anything other than hype, but I'm not a luthier. I would just emphasize that regardless of "CFN" it is a really very nice guitar.
     
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  6. Modman68

    Modman68 Tele-Holic

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    I’m sure it is a well intentioned concept, but the whole theory falls apart as soon as I start bending strings.
     
  7. EsquireOK

    EsquireOK Friend of Leo's

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    I am flabbergasted how the greatest music of all time was created without snazzy inventions like this.
     
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  8. trapdoor2

    trapdoor2 Tele-Afflicted Gold Supporter

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    Wait, there's a pile of woo! Don't step in it.

    I've see this, ages ago as a question on some forum somewhere. Since the nut spacing is narrower than the bridge spacing, it means that the strings, if extended past the nut, have a vertex. Anything with a vertex has circular implications, therefore the frets should be laid into the fretboard on a radius measured from that vertex. Simple, lovely geometry...and completely woo.

    The curvature of the fret is so tiny (I haven't calculated it) that you could probably accidently file it straight during a fret-job.
     
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  9. elihu

    elihu Poster Extraordinaire

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    I have heard nothing but good things about Fujigen guitars and basses.

    Thanks guys.
     
  10. Gaz_

    Gaz_ Tele-Meister

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    Well, we'd all have to buy new fret files...
     
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  11. Peegoo

    Peegoo Friend of Leo's

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    Fujigen makes good-quality stuff.

    But I've always thought this was a solution looking for a problem. As Modman68 says, it all goes out the window as soon as you bend a string.

    Even more critical is it all goes out the window as soon as you touch a string. All players grip and fret differently. We're not machines, and that alone makes perfectly accurate intonation impossible.

    This is a good concept...but in execution, it's little more than polishing the cannonball.
     
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  12. tubegeek

    tubegeek Friend of Leo's

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    Wouldn't that get you more muzzle velocity and truer flight?
     
  13. Peegoo

    Peegoo Friend of Leo's

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    Not necessarily. As us pirates say, there ARRR other considerations.

    Polishing the ball would reduce its diameter thereby allowing the expanding combustion gasses to leak past the ball in the barrel, reducing pressure, muzzle velocity, and range.
     
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  14. tubegeek

    tubegeek Friend of Leo's

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    Pirates ARR verry likely to be engaging at close range though....
     
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  15. old wrench

    old wrench Tele-Afflicted

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    Might as well sh*t-can our fret saws, they've become obsolete :)!!!


    .
     
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  16. Peegoo

    Peegoo Friend of Leo's

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    Yep. I've put my PLEK machine out on the curb with a FREE sign in it.
     
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  17. tfarny

    tfarny Friend of Leo's

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    I'm not saying you guys are wrong to mock this. I AM saying the guitar I have is really, really nicely done and is probably the nicest playing guitar I own.
     
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  18. Peegoo

    Peegoo Friend of Leo's

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    Not mocking it at all. Like I posted above, Fujigen makes really good stuff. Fender contracted them in the 1980s to make Fenders because the US factory was inop after Bill Schultz and crew bought the company.

    With the circle fret system, there are too many physical variables involved to make it a truly marketable product. On paper is makes plenty of sense, but for the vast majority of players it will not improve intonation.

    It's a lot like the Buzz Feiten nut: some players hear a difference and most don't. There's a huge majority of pros that play in tune and make great music without a Feiten (or Earvana) nut on their guitar.

    More importantly: if any feature on a guitar or amp works for you, nobody can tell you differently. What matters is you like your instruments; the ones that make you want to pick them up and play are the best ones.

    Cheers!
     
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  19. Marc Morfei

    Marc Morfei Tele-Afflicted

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    Sounds like a solution in search of a problem.
     
  20. Sea Devil

    Sea Devil Friend of Leo's

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    It makes perfect sense in theory, but if you extend the lines of the strings to find the "vanishing point," it seems to be about nine feet away from the nut!

    Fender scale is 25.5 inches. That makes about eleven feet, one and a half inches; or 133.5 inches, straight from the vanishing point to the center of the bridge. We'll call that A.
    With 2.52" string spacing, the high and low E strings are each 1.26" from the center. We'll call that (1.26") B.
    Since A2 + B2 = C2 (With either E string as the hypotenuse, or C, of a right triangle), we get these values: 17822.25 + 1.5876 = 17823.837, or C2. Solve for C, and you get... 133.50594.

    That's less than six thousands of an inch, and that's at the bridge, not at any point on the fretboard. That's enough to matter above the fifteenth fret or so, but also small enough to be negated by minute differences in finger pressure. Except that you're already compensating for that at the bridge when you set the intonation, which would make the fretted note even more sharp, and require you to curve the frets even more to make up for it... Or would it, if the nut isn't also curved? Wouldn't that have the opposite effect, to make the distance between nut and fret microscopically smaller? Or would the two balance out, since the nut and the fret are relatively close together, so that it's the relationship between them that matters most, rather than the relationship between either one and the overall length of that side of the triangle?

    All of this is without even considering the radius, whether single or compound.

    This is more math than I can handle. I give up.

    It would indeed be very difficult to crown the frets on the inside of the curve.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020 at 2:46 PM
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