Church, Guitar Balance and Equalization

GoldieLocks

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Read the whole thing. Awesome information. PRetty suRE it's Gobbly-Gook to 95% of church musicians and techies. Serious musicians need to know this stuff.

I'm still trying to explain to people why it's LOUDER when they sit at the front... and quieter in the back. We have people that sit 10 ft. from the drums and complain when we tell them to maybe sit 100ft. from them. You can't cure that.
 

studio

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I used to gig with that Yamaha amp.
Wish I still had it.
I wish you still had it too!

They had the coolest sounding built in distortion.
I read once that those amps had the same
chip set that the early Tube Screamers used
for that 2nd channel overdrive sound!
 

studio

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Read the whole thing. Awesome information. PRetty suRE it's Gobbly-Gook to 95% of church musicians and techies. Serious musicians need to know this stuff.

I'm still trying to explain to people why it's LOUDER when they sit at the front... and quieter in the back. We have people that sit 10 ft. from the drums and complain when we tell them to maybe sit 100ft. from them. You can't cure that.
This is why I didn't get too in depth about any of the
subject matter. I kept it light and to the point hopefully.
Sure, there is so much more involved with electronics
and their roll in modern musicianship.

There are somethings though better left to the old school
path of performance craft. Like, I don't care how hyped a pedal
sales can be, there's no mistaking a Strat through a Marshall
tube amp. Or a Gibson ES175 through a Polytone amp.

Yes, some of the subject matter can be an uphill climb
but what I presented is basic high school math and my
grandkids learn how to draw graphs in the 3rd grade!

It is not that hard folks! It just takes your mind to adjust
to a visualization of the sound coming from a guitar.

This thread is not just for guitar players only.
If every audio tech and musician were to follow
these guidelines, we could rock da house on every street corner!

...and then there's this:

 

65 Champ Amp

Tele-Afflicted
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Illinois-Wisconsin line
Well done, Studio.
Your comments on “CUT THROUGH THE MIX” are spot on. It should be “sit in the mix”.
I feel the same when I hear guitarists lusting for hot, overwound pickups.
 

studio

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Well done, Studio.
Your comments on “CUT THROUGH THE MIX” are spot on. It should be “sit in the mix”.
I feel the same when I hear guitarists lusting for hot, overwound pickups.
David Allen made some really nice hot vintage style pickups
that didn't have that ice pick thing going on.

There are people out there who understand the
frustrations of modern guitarists. We just have to search for them.
Especially in a church setting. What's cool in the clubs might
not work very well at Bible study!
 
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studio

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Our church used to have a really good tech guy. He left for greener pastures during last year. I suspect he was looking for (and found) and job that allowed him time to sleep. He and his team put in a LOT of hours.

He was really great at what he did.
Did he leave behind a well mentored protege?
I'm sure he did!

Heck, as busy as the apostles were they spent
time mentoring people too.
 

Chester P Squier

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Read the whole thing. Awesome information. PRetty suRE it's Gobbly-Gook to 95% of church musicians and techies. Serious musicians need to know this stuff.

I'm still trying to explain to people why it's LOUDER when they sit at the front... and quieter in the back. We have people that sit 10 ft. from the drums and complain when we tell them to maybe sit 100ft. from them. You can't cure that.

People don't understand the inverse square law. Twice the distance gets 1/4 the energy, 3x gets 1/9 the energy, etc.
 

studio

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Read the whole thing. Awesome information. PRetty suRE it's Gobbly-Gook to 95% of church musicians and techies. Serious musicians need to know this stuff.

I'm still trying to explain to people why it's LOUDER when they sit at the front... and quieter in the back. We have people that sit 10 ft. from the drums and complain when we tell them to maybe sit 100ft. from them. You can't cure that.

People don't understand the inverse square law. Twice the distance gets 1/4 the energy, 3x gets 1/9 the energy, etc.

You are so right. This is why I spent some time and energy
trying to word this subject in a simplistic format.
We can't expect good folks to always be thinking about
the laws that govern our existence.

If I had to spend waking hours contemplating gravity
or time/space, I'd never leave the house!

The form of loudness Goldie Locks is discussing
comes from our ability to measure distance
and reflection. I've come to notice not all ears
or other human measurements of perception
are created the same.

I can see how some may have an issue
with loud drums yet they might suffer through it
because they are sitting where the sermon
can be heard distinctly for them. They have
needs and expectations that are being addressed
by their seating position.

So how does an audio engineer solve such
a dilemma? If you seat the people away from
the drums, yes they will hear less of it but
it might also cause them to miss the important
dialog being presented.

Nobody wants to be a center of attraction
just to justify their disability needs or being
catered to by ushers. No one wants to be deemed
the freak by having to wear or sit in a specialized
zone.

This is what concerns me when I manage a sound system.
When elderly folk start to lose their hearing, speech
and the ability to decipher background noise gets
lost in their internal mix process. By design, a well
treated room acoustically can cut down on a lot
of those issues for those with a need and it brings us back
to the start of this topic. Treat the room with respect
and everything else should fall into place. Thanks.
 

Chester P Squier

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Did he leave behind a well mentored protege?
I'm sure he did!

Heck, as busy as the apostles were they spent
time mentoring people too.

Well, I don't wish to criticize, but there has been the occasion technical problem that did not happen before. But then, I'm livestreaming all the services nowadays. I haven't been there in person, singing in the choir, since early March 2020.
 

studio

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Well, I don't wish to criticize, but there has been the occasion technical problem that did not happen before. But then, I'm livestreaming all the services nowadays. I haven't been there in person, singing in the choir, since early March 2020.
Oh, I totally get that!
Since being home I have now been put on
broadcast duty from my home studio.
I give somewhat real time direction to
both camera people and audio engineer.

From my home base, I hear things they can't
possibly hear from inside the building.
Sunday I told them the two guitar players were not
only out of tune with each other but
they were playing the same chords!
 

studio

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I hope these graphs help in visualizing what is being sought after with guitar
performance through a PA system.

As you know, these graphs are in no way used for monetary gain
and are just for this thread's educational purpose.
No copyright infringement is intended. Thanks.




This Frequency graph is from a Katana amp. See how it rolls off on the
high end starting around 3khz then takes a dive at 5khz! Exciting yes?
Then on the low end, (the left side of the graph) it starts to fall off
around 80hz, the same frequency the guitar's low E lives at!
Check out the crazy 2khz dip!

Boss Katana Speaker:

Katana Speaker.png






This one here is the Eminence Ragin Cajun Speaker. Very popular.
Following the bold line, what a difference compared to the Katana,
yet very much in the same ballpark design on the ends.
It's the mid section, between 1khz and 5khz that seems to make a difference.

Ragin Cajun Speaker:
Ragin_Cajun.png
 

studio

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Look at the graphs above.
this is why when you want to get louder in the PA system
it starts to sound like a bee in a coffee can, the section between
1khz and 5khz get elevated above all the other frequencies,
making your guitar sound like a giant dentist drill.

This is where proper use of your EQ can save the day
for your stage sound and tame those frequencies that
are sticking way up out of proportion to everything else.

This is based on The Fletcher-Munson Curve for those of
you who might want a deeper understanding of the
Equal Loudness Contour.

Tell us when you stop hearing the frequencies!

 

mRtINY

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Orygun
And sometimes, the drill is the right sound to get your attention....
 

studio

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If anyone has any questions or comments,
I am willing to correspond through this forum,
or you can PM me on this TDPRI site.

We could also setup a zoom meeting or
just have a telephone conversation at your
convenience.

If your church is in California, Southern California,
there's a possibility we can meet at your house of worship
and suggest the best possible plan of action.

Here's my email: [email protected]

Thanks.
 

Teladjacent

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Indiana
I’m a guitar and bass player and know nothing about sound. I read all of this and have no idea what I’m supposed to take away.
 

Teladjacent

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I guess the takeaway might be: don’t be a jerk to the sound guy even if he mocks you for not knowing the frequency response curve of your gear.
 

JuneauMike

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Alaska
I guess the takeaway might be: don’t be a jerk to the sound guy even if he mocks you for not knowing the frequency response curve of your gear.
No, the takeaway is, there are complicated forces that can influence what you are hearing in Sunday. If you care to take more control of your sound, here's a primer on areas to learn more about.

The following exchange is one example of how a deeper understanding of sound frequencies can be applied to help you change your tone.
This is great. I've got an EQ pedal that is all magic to me. I've played around with it a little bit but never used it as a tool to subtract unwanted frequencies (I can't identify those frequencies by name, but I can hear them. Frustrating).

Where does the splatty Strat reside in all this?
Or the wooly and inarticulate humbucker sound?

Splat is usually in the 800-1500Hz range.

Wool is typically excess 200-500Hz.
 

hotraman

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I’m a guitar and bass player and know nothing about sound. I read all of this and have no idea what I’m supposed to take away.

All of us start somewhere at the beginning. I know enough of FOH sound to communicate and trouble shoot issues ( being an ex worship pastor)
As a guitarist / multi instrumentalist, I check with the FOH after our soundcheck, to make sure they are getting what they need, from my pedalboard. And Ive had to explain to a few sound mixers, the tone difference between a Telecaster vs a Gretsch Black Falcon vs a pedal steel guitar.
 




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