Chord question: "7" chords

[P Thought]

Do I have it right in thinking that the "7" on chords like D7, B7, C#7, etc., means that the chord contains a note that is the seventh note in the scale named by the tonic note?

So (do I have this part right?) for a major chord, that's going to be 1/2 step from the tonic, but for a minor chord it will be a full step, because it's a minor scale?

Or (always possible with me) do I have this all-around wrong? If so, will someone help me understand the "7" designation?

 

[rdo1708]

Yes. You're right in your thinking. Contains a "7th" note of the scale in the chord.

For example: a D7 chord would include a C# note within the chord.

I love playing E7 open chord like this:

e--0
b--0
g--8
d--9
a--7
E--0

 

[Rod Parsons]

Major 7th is 1/2 step down from the tonic's, octave, [8th note] ...................... Minor 7th, [or dominant 7th], is one whole step down from tonic's octave, [8th].. There is, obviously, a huge difference in sound between them.

 

[Kerry Brown]

1/2 tone down is a Major 7 written as BM7. A B7 is a full tone down and called a Dominant 7. Dominant 7 chords are usually used with the 5th chord in a major scale. e.g. B7 would be used in the key of E.

 

[BigDaddyLH]

Your wording makes me think you are a little shakey on this.

The "basic" chord in Western harmony is the triad, like C-E-G: root-third-fifth. The most common ones are:

Major triad: C-E-G
Minor triad: D-F-A
Diminished triad: B-D-F
Augmented triad: C-E-G#

Adding a seventh to a triad creates some flavour of seventh chord.

Where I think you confusion may start is when people talk about "*the* seventh chord". By this they mean the dominant seventh chord, which is a major triad plus a minor seventh (= a whole step below the root):

G7 = G B D F

Because dominant sevenths are historically the first commonly used of the seventh chords, they get a short chord name, e.g. G7. They are most commonly the V chord, G7 is the V chord of the key of C.

Other common kinds of seventh chord are the major seventh (major triad plus major seventh (= half step below the root)):

CMaj7 = C E G B

... and the minor seventh (minor triad plus minor seventh):

Dmin7 = D F A C

The next common one that confuses people is the "minor 7 flat 5" only because it has a longer name. It is a diminished triad plus a minor seventh:

Bmin7b5 = B D F A

 

[czgibson]

Yes. You're right in your thinking. Contains a "7th" note of the scale in the chord.

For example: a D7 chord would include a C# note within the chord.

I love playing E7 open chord like this:

e--0
b--0
g--8
d--9
a--7
E--0

This is wrong.

D major with C# = Dmaj7

The chord you've shown in tab above is Emaj7, not E7.

Here are the formulas for the different types of seventh chord:

Major 7 = 1 3 5 7
Dominant 7 = 1 3 5 b7
Minor 7 = 1 b3 5 b7
Minor 7b5 = 1 b3 b5 b7
Diminished 7 = 1 b3 b5 bb7
Minor / Major 7 = 1 b3 5 7

Dominant 7 is the full name for chords like E7, D7, C7 etc. The dominant 7 chord contains the root, third and fifth of the major scale, plus the flattened seventh note of the major scale.

 

[BigDaddyLH]

Yes. You're right in your thinking. Contains a "7th" note of the scale in the chord.

For example: a D7 chord would include a C# note within the chord.

I love playing E7 open chord like this:

e--0
b--0
g--8
d--9
a--7
E--0

I think you are confusing the notation for major seventh chords (D F# A C#) and dominant sevenths chords (D F# A C).

The major seventh chord is notated DMaj7 or DM7 or DΔ etc... it is never notated D7 -- that's the notation for a dominant seventh chord.

 

[Lobomov]

In principle you are right, that it is the seventh note from the root on whatever scale the chord is part of. But notation if different depending on whether that note is a minor or major 7th from the root.

The "7" is reserved for the minor 7th (also called the dominant seventh, when part of a major chord) .. so C7 contains the note Bb, which is the minor 7th from C.

The major seventh is notated in different ways. Most common er Cmaj7, CM7 and C followed by a triangle, I don't know how to type a triangle tho.

So the chords of the C major scale are:
Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 and Bm7(b5)

 

[P Thought]

Aha, I think.

One more question, and I hope I'm wording it clearly. When applying the formulas above, you use the major scale of the tonic note (WWHWWWH), and then apply the formula? Here I'm trying to clear up the thinking expressed in my OP second paragraph.

 

[waparker4]

Aha, I think.

One more question, and I hope I'm wording it clearly. When applying the formulas above, you use the major scale of the tonic note (WWHWWWH), and then apply the formula? Here I'm trying to clear up the thinking expressed in my OP second paragraph.

Other people have described exactly how to form 7th chords already in this thread. If the thinking in your OP second paragraph doesn't jibe with this, you need to change your thinking.

 

[rdo1708]

In principle you are right, that it is the seventh note from the root on whatever scale the chord is part of. But notation if different depending on whether that note is a minor or major 7th from the root. The "7" is reserved for the minor 7th (also called the dominant seventh, when part of a major chord) .. so C7 contains the note Bb, which is the minor 7th from C. The major seventh is notated in different ways. Most common er Cmaj7, CM7 and C followed by a triangle, I don't know how to type a triangle tho. So the chords of the C major scale are: Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 and Bm7(b5)

Yep. I concede. +1^ This is correct. I KNEW this... But said it incorrectly. I never write this stuff down, so I rarely have to recall the correct terminology. Thank you for clarifying my incorrect notation. What I was referring to would be notated Emaj7

 

[P Thought]

Other people have described exactly how to form 7th chords already in this thread. If the thinking in your OP second paragraph doesn't jibe with this, you need to change your thinking.

I'll take that as a "yes". Thanks.

 

[waparker4]

I'll take that as a "yes". Thanks.

Haha, I think I get what you were getting at now. "yes"

 

[jbmando]

I believe we should call the note in question the "flat seventh." If you say minor 7th, the chord with the flat 3 and the flat 7 is what comes to mind. Here's post I made 3-1/2 years ago addressing the nomenclature of 7th chords:

Okay, here's a little thing that may seem like an anomaly. When a chord is called a "something 7th," it really means the FLATTED 7th degree of the major scale. For example, a C7 has C E G and Bb, not B natural, which is the scalar 7th. This type of chord is usually referred to as a "Dominant 7th." If you play C E G B it is a C Major 7th, usually written Cmaj7 or CM7, as opposed to Cm7 which is C minor seventh. In a "minor 7th" chord, the thing that makes it minor is the third and it still uses the flatted 7th. If you play a C minor chord with the major 7th, it would be called Cm(maj7.) In this case, the "minor" means the third and the major means the 7th. To review chord names:

C = C major = C E G
C7 = C major with a flat 7 = C E G Bb
Cmaj7 = C major 7th = C E G B
Cm7 = C minor 7th = C Eb G Bb
Cm(maj7) = C minor major 7th = C Eb G B

"Seventh" is the only degree which has what seems like an inconsistent definition. All the other scale degrees are what they are: second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, ninth, eleventh and thirteenth are always what they seem to be. The modifier will tell you what to do to it. For example: b5 means lower the scalar 5th 1/2 step. #9 means raise the scalar 9th 1/2 step.

 

[BigDaddyLH]

I believe we should call the note in question the "flat seventh." If you say minor 7th, the chord with the flat 3 and the flat 7 is what comes to mind. Here's post I made 3-1/2 years ago addressing the nomenclature of 7th chords:

Good idea. You could emphasize you are taking about the "minor seventh *interval*", for example G-to-F. The trouble is, people don't hear ""minor seventh *interval*", they hear "minor seventh *woof*" and they think you are talking about a minor seventh chord.

 

[waparker4]

Aha, I think.

One more question, and I hope I'm wording it clearly. When applying the formulas above, you use the major scale of the tonic note (WWHWWWH), and then apply the formula? Here I'm trying to clear up the thinking expressed in my OP second paragraph.

I think this answers your question--

"Seventh" is the only degree which has what seems like an inconsistent definition. All the other scale degrees are what they are: second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, ninth, eleventh and thirteenth are always what they seem to be.

 

[P Thought]

 

[jbmando]

Note for P Thought:

All chords are named from the degrees of the root's MAJOR scale, whether the chord is major, minor, diminished or augmented. When you see a chord symbol such "CmMaj9b5," you figure out the notes based on the C major scale. The 'm' means you flat the third, = Eb; the Maj9 means you use the natural 7th, = B and add a ninth, = D; the b5 means you lower the 5th, = Gb. This chord would be spelled C Eb Gb B D.

 

[P Thought]

Thanks, everyone. Once again you have helped me. I love this place.

Did someone say "woof"? You guys think I'm dumb now (I can't blame you), you shoulda seen me five years ago!

 

[Lucky Day]

It's a little tricky once you try to really describe it. As others have noted "D7" refers to a D major with a dominant 7 (the b7 in the major scale, in this case C).

In practice, a very theoretical "clean" application is on the V chord of a I, IV, V pattern. Because each of the chords is made by harmonizing notes from the tonic (I) major scale, you get something like this (take D major for example):
I= D major = D, F#, A (every other note starting on the root)
IV= G major = G, B, D (every other note starting on the IV)
V7= A7 = A, C#, E, G (every other note starting on the V)

So the A7 is built by harmonizing notes from the D major scale. This could also be looked at as the A mixolydian scale.

In practice, adding the dominant 7 to chords where it doesn't cleanly fit with the major scale works, too. For instance, frequently the root chord will be made a dominant 7 in the bridge of a song to make a resolution to the IV chord.