1. Win a Broadcaster or one of 3 Teles! The annual Supporting Member Giveaway is on. To enter Click Here. To see all the prizes and full details Click Here. To view the thread about the giveaway Click Here.

Chord categories?

Discussion in 'Tab, Tips, Theory and Technique' started by Hari Seldon, Jan 21, 2021.

  1. Hari Seldon

    Hari Seldon Tele-Meister

    Posts:
    388
    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2015
    Location:
    Germany
    Now it's getting philosophical...

    It may be possible to learn something from someone who didn't understand the question, but that's not very likely.
     
  2. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    4,116
    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Location:
    Texas
    I don't learn from the student, I learn from the act of understanding and conveying the knowledge in a clear and thorough manner.
    Does the archer learn from the target? Of course, he sees where he is missing the mark and corrects for those errors, and ... improves.
     
    Wally and Leon Grizzard like this.
  3. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

    Posts:
    9,306
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2006
    Location:
    Los Angeles, Ca
    The more you understand a topic/subject/discipline or whatever you want to call it, the easier it is for you to learn more about it and most importantly - apply that new knowledge.
    I learn stuff about music (and recording) everyday.
    Seriously.
    Every day.
     
    Wally likes this.
  4. superjam144

    superjam144 Tele-Afflicted

    Age:
    32
    Posts:
    1,082
    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2020
    Location:
    EMPIRE STATE
    Dyads are also known as double stops! Something I am working on still, and amazed at how versatile they are in lead playing. Learned a lot here about Steve Cropper's technique of using them melodically ALOT! So cool. Dyad is a cool word, sounds ancient :p
     
    klasaine likes this.
  5. Hari Seldon

    Hari Seldon Tele-Meister

    Posts:
    388
    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2015
    Location:
    Germany
    I think that is what I like the most. "Movable chords" is better than "Jazz chords", because Jazz is a genre and those chords and how we play them is not limited to Jazz.
    And yes, most guitarists should use chord shapes only as a fine tool, nothing that has a meaning. It's only the relation between the notes that matters. (That's why I LOLed when I saw chord shapes for keyboard the first time)
     
    Rowdyman, SRHmusic and klasaine like this.
  6. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

    Posts:
    38,681
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2003
    Location:
    Lubbock, TX
    Open chords and what are usually called cowboy chords are not necessarily the same since an open chord is when any open string or strings are played in conjunction with any fretted notes...no matter where the fretted positions are. 0,11,11,9,0,0 as an example.
    Here is some cowboy music for ya’ll. You could play this simply with with first position ‘cowboy’ chords, or you could play real COWBOY chords.....some of which are sometimes called JAZZ chords.

     
  7. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    4,116
    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Location:
    Texas
    What are commonly called "jazz chords" exist in much of Classical music, and were used that way before Jazz was invented. Chords are just harmonizations. If players like the term "jazz chord", by all means. I don't like the term.

    An interesting way to look at chords is to try to figure out every note that could possibly be in that chord, even if you wouldn't or couldn't play all of them at once.
    Good ear training and eye-opening exercise.
     
    Wally and SRHmusic like this.
  8. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

    Posts:
    56,694
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2009
    Location:
    Kelowna, BC, Canuckistan
    The barred F is a cowboy chord (133211) and it's movable. Now what?!
     
  9. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    4,116
    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Location:
    Texas
    Barre chords are not "Cowboy Chords". And, cowboys like to hang out in bars! You can't explain that.
     
  10. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

    Posts:
    56,694
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2009
    Location:
    Kelowna, BC, Canuckistan
    I was taught: learn barre chords, play in bars.
     
  11. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    4,116
    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Location:
    Texas
    I'm just relieved when players know what bar they are on.
     
    BigDaddyLH likes this.
  12. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

    Posts:
    38,681
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2003
    Location:
    Lubbock, TX
    In reality, ‘cowboys’....Western music’ players...have always known barre chords as well how and when to use them. Those ‘cowboys’ also used those ‘jazz’...er classical....er...blues chords. As noted, all groups of three or more notes are chords. That is how I classify them...and use them. Open chords are all over the fret board. Jazz chords are all over the fretboard. Cowboy chords are all over the fretboard. Why limit understanding with classifications that separate things. My limited understanding increased when I learned how chords were built and how to extend and alter them. Being untrained, my ear leads me in the search but some understanding of the basics helps understand what the ear wants to hear...and how to find alternatives to one certain voicing of any chord.
     
  13. MilwMark

    MilwMark Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Posts:
    12,327
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2013
    Location:
    near Arnold's
    @Wally - I think the short answer is that’s how we learn. Can’t understand the parts without understanding the whole. Can’t understand the whole without understanding the parts. Fascinating subject https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutic_circle

    So we packet things initially so folks have parts they can latch onto. Then we expand to the whole. Back-and-forth expanding cycles and circle.

    Try to start with the “whole” with a beginner and they flounder.
     
    Wally likes this.
  14. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

    Posts:
    56,694
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2009
    Location:
    Kelowna, BC, Canuckistan
    A good question: what do you find helpful or useful, and why? Especially the "why".
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2021
  15. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

    Posts:
    38,681
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2003
    Location:
    Lubbock, TX
    well, I understand that we cannot learn everything at once, but imho categorizing and separating along what are without a doubt false lines is not conducive to learning..ime. Imho, it is best to perhaps teach how to form a chord without labeling with anything other than its proper name....G...C....Am....whatever. At the same t8me, start the student on playing a C major scale. Teach the 8ntervals of that scale...1,2,34,5,6,7. Then, since by this time they can play that C chord in the first position, one can instruct them as to how that chord is built from that scale as well as how the other basic chords are derived from that scale. This sets the student up for understanding how to build any chord...extended or altered. Then, one can learn inversions.
    Imho, putting labels on th8ngs, especially if the labels are not accurate, is a hindrance because at some point one will have to learn that...well....cowboy music doesn’t necessarily live in the first three frets of the fretboard...and one can play an altered chord in music other than ‘jazz’...cowboy music, blues, etc.
    Hey, I came up with a heavy rock thing just for one of my students to explore leads against. Since then, I have changed one movement in the arrangement. Instead of walking the bass note from the 5th fret, low E up to the 6th fret to get to the B on the 7th fret, which is the root of the Bm ‘key’ chord, on day I heard a thing and used my ear formed what many would call a ‘jazz’ chord.....and this is anything but a jazz movement. It is played in screaming high harmonic overdrive....six note chord that screams like something I had never heard before. Nor has anyone who has heard it....and they all have a certain wonderment in their eyes....and therefore their ears. to paraphrase...’I don’t need no stinkin’ restrictions!’ ....especially from inaccurate classifications.
    As always...Ommv. But....their are players of ‘cowboy’ music that can walk all over some people who think they can play jazz, and there are open chords all over the board. Inaccurate classifications either lead to permanent misunderstanding or future correction. I once heard or read something about answering very young children’s questions. The point of the observation was that one should answer truthfully and fully. The child will absorb what they can and learn the rest in the future...but will have a firm and reliable basis for future understanding instead of wondering...’but that’s not what I was told when....’

    I suppose one could say that I do not believe in alternative facts. Eeeehaw.....
     
  16. MilwMark

    MilwMark Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Posts:
    12,327
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2013
    Location:
    near Arnold's
    @Wally - I understand where you are coming from.

    But let me ask you this - why do you call it a "C" chord? I mean, it's really "every major chord" depending on where you locate it.

    Point being, we always packet things.

    And "open chord" or "cowboy chord" or "barre chord" are just part of the lexicon. It's how others refer to them, so why fight that tide?

    "Jazz chord" doesn't really resonate with me either.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2021
    Wally likes this.
  17. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    4,116
    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Location:
    Texas
    Joe Pass was a very talented player, who had gained an intuitive understanding of complex harmony. Joe was mostly self taught, but accepted students, and he struggled, at least part of the time with some students, to explain what he was teaching. Some of his students describe him playing an intricate passage, and remarking,"Just do that".

    A friend from decades ago helped Joe compile and edit a guitar course. He told me Joe could hardly read (music), and didn't always know the correct names of every chord or scale, but ... he played flawlessly. I offer that his strength as a teacher was "inspiration".
     
    Wally likes this.
  18. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

    Posts:
    38,681
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2003
    Location:
    Lubbock, TX
    well, ‘we’ don’t always packet things unless the ‘we’ is derived by a selective omission of those who see things differently. Here’s a question....Did Segovia call those first position chords ‘cowboy’ chords???? I packet things that belong together. Just as there are no cowboy guitars or jazz guitars...imho and ime, there are no cowboy chords or jazz chords. There are guitars and guitar players. The better ones are not limited by someone else’s limitations placed by some inaccurate ‘lexicon’.
    I called it a C chord—-in the first position—-because that is what I was talking about...building the chords from a C scale.
    As for the ‘lexicon’, of the three examples of the usage, imho only the barre chord is a valid. Ommv....but as examples be real cowboy (western) music from long ago, there are no limits on what a cowboy might play. It is invalid,imho...and I never heard it until I got around folks who used it in a derogatory manner. Open chords.....they exist all over the board...not just the first three frets.
    0,7,5,0,8,0 is an open chord. So is x,0,7,6,5,0. So is x,x,07,7,5 or x,x,7,7,10. On and on and on.....so, imho, ‘open chords’ when used to describe only those chords in the first three frets with an open string in the chord...as the ‘lexicon’ would have us believe...is invalid.
    Why fight the tide?? Good advice. I am out of this one......my first post was enough said,imho....’they are all chords’.
    Ya’ll have a good one.
     
  19. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

    Posts:
    9,306
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2006
    Location:
    Los Angeles, Ca
    I use the term 'cowboy' chords (open chords in the first position) all the time. Interestingly the first time I heard the term was from a Berklee grad piano player I was working with and he asked me if I could play a "Cowboy G7" in one particular spot: 320001 ... and it was a perfect fit.

    The moniker may not academically hold water all the time but I think it's pretty descriptive of a sound and an approach.

    My fave street terminology for a class of chord voicings was coined by my good friend Roger Burn (RIP). He referred to jazz chords when they reared their head in rock and pop music as "adult" chords.
     
  20. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    4,116
    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Location:
    Texas
    Musicians love to use slang. Hang out with real Jazz players, you'll hear "Northwest Corner" for the start of a chart, legit players will call the fermata a "bird's eye", the caesura is "railroad tracks". I understand an instructor wanting to use accurate terminology for their students, but depending on the age of the student, the formality of the teacher, and what genre of music is being taught, it's probably good for a novice to start to dig the lingo of players.

    I heard "Cowboy Chords" back in the70s, I'm sure it's older than that. It's a colorful term, and more poetic than "Beginner" chords, less specific than "folk" or "Appalachian" chords, which would make as much sense.

    My personal gripe with "Jazz" chords is that Jazz music has been so misunderstood by the general public, and has become the target of insults by recent comedians, such as Billy Connolly and Craig Ferguson (What's up with Scots and Jazz Hate?), and there are always a teeming mass of "musicians" who dis Jazz I think for group identity with other anti-intellectuals ... and so in many circles, like among the Blues nazis or the Country bros, Jazz has become a bad word, something threatening and to be mistrusted, and Jazz musicians, labelled condescending and limited in range.

    There is a whole culture of anti-Jazz sentiment among Blues communities, or at least among their de facto leaders. I've certainly seen that in several big cities. I'm not trying to defend the genre of Jazz, but to point out that "Jazz Chords" is more than a descriptive term ... often a derogatory one.

    I think Wally touched on this regarding "Cowboy" chords. He may have a point, though I've never heard the term used to denigrate Country musicians.
     
IMPORTANT: Treat everyone here with respect, no matter how difficult!
No sex, drug, political, religion or hate discussion permitted here.