Champ speaker (tweed)

Discussion in 'Amp Tech Center' started by Truecolors, May 12, 2017.

  1. Truecolors

    Truecolors TDPRI Member

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    Can't settle on a speaker for the champ. Thought I'd ask for experience here.

    The amp is a tad dark to me. But I love the sound.

    For reference I use a tweed Harvard out. It's pretty bright for a tweed. It's running a Weber alnico sig10s. It's perfect. I'm a chord to amp player mostly.

    I've tried a Weber sig8 and sig8s. (Yes I broke them in before trying.) I usually love ribbed speakers for the more open mids and less weight in the lows.

    I like the gain from the sig8 but the mid hump is hard for me to get used to. The 8S has a great balance for me, but feels like it's muted. There is a loss of overall high frequency. It doesn't drive very well either.

    I was thinking about an 8a100t but am concerned that it may get me high frequency but not the gain I want.

    May have to bite into ceramic to get the edge I want.

    For any help thanks in advance.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2017
  2. uriah1

    uriah1 Telefied Gold Supporter

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    I stopped swapping after putting in a C8R . Sounded more vintage
     
  3. Truecolors

    Truecolors TDPRI Member

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    Did you ever try a heavy ribbed alnico (like more than the 8S)

    I just find it odd that no one makes an alnico that sounds like the originals I've heard.
     
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  4. thegeezer

    thegeezer Tele-Afflicted

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    I think a lot of that is because the old R series Jensens were pretty fragile...no one really wants to make one. I shredded the P12R in my old Deluxe. Even Weber uses Q weight paper to recone them. Dean Zink reconed it for me with the correct weight (which is to say lighter weight) paper.

    So, to make a speaker that's harder to destroy, it has a slightly heavier cone, often a bigger voice coil and magnet...it ain't gonna sound the same.
     
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  5. Truecolors

    Truecolors TDPRI Member

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    So I guess my options are to switch to Ceramic ribbed (which puts you in similar territory) or buy an old speaker.
     
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  6. thegeezer

    thegeezer Tele-Afflicted

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    Probably so. I am currently using a '59 p12Q in my '54 Deluxe. It isn't quite as sweet and articulate to my ear as the R but it's close and playing live with my current band the demands on the speaker are pretty harsh.

    So, after getting my R back from Dean Zink and breaking it in (and it sounds wonderful) I opted to compromise and use the slightly higher wattage Q for the time being.

    When I can be a little kinder to it, I will reinstall the R. They are getting hard enough to find that I have become a little cautious with it.
     
  7. thegeezer

    thegeezer Tele-Afflicted

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    An extra 2 cents...Besides my old Deluxe, I also have a tweed Princeton clone and a 5e3 clone, both built to the original schematics. Neither sound quite like the real deal, close but not quite close enough for my taste.

    Don't get me wrong. They are great sounding amps but not quite authentic. And I have had the opportunity to A/B the 5e3 with a buddy's '55 5e3 with an original P12R in it.

    I get everybody talking about how well they like this speaker or that in their tweeds...I finally settled on a Weber 12a125a in my 5e3 and a Weber Alnico 8 in my 5f2...they're close. But if you want them to sound like they originally did....

    If you have a clone or repro, I'm kind of in the camp that you find the tone you like. If you have the real deal, make it sound like the real deal.
     
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  8. Truecolors

    Truecolors TDPRI Member

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    How does that handle cranking the amp?
     
  9. Truecolors

    Truecolors TDPRI Member

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    Did you A/B both amp s into the old speaker?

    I've done this with two champs for example. One new. One 58'.

    It is my experience that both sounded the same through the old speaker.

    I think speaker is more impactful than tube set. If the values are the same and both amps are healthy, speaker is the mystery element that's missing.
     
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  10. thegeezer

    thegeezer Tele-Afflicted

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    I agree and have done the same. A quality clone that is faithful to the original schematic should be virtually impossible to tell from an original if they're both running the same speaker...being more experienced with old Deluxes, I'm thinking in terms of those with P12Rs, both smooth cone and rib cone.

    I've also done the same with my late '59 P12Q that I currently use in the '54 Deluxe. For grins, I've gone the other way and jacked the '54 through the Weber 12A125A that's in my 5e3.

    So yes, if the circuit is truly faithful to the original, the speaker is what gets you the rest of the way to THAT sound, it seems to me. I've experimented some with various NOS tubes but generally, again to me, the differences are subtle enough that it doesn't concern me: RCA, GE, Sylvania...I don't really care. Get the speaker right.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
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  11. red57strat

    red57strat Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    I've had a Weber Sig 8 Ceramic (nice and articulate), a Midwest VOR V8A-25 alnico (dark and woody) and a Weber Sig 8S (less dark than the VOR) in mine and just put a Weber CVA8 in my Mojo 5F1 clone.
    The CVA8 has more ribs and is brighter than the other alnicos. I like it a lot and it was inexpensive.
     
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  12. Truecolors

    Truecolors TDPRI Member

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    So ribs it is.

    I might try and find an old ribbed alnico.

    And then get the WGS ribbed and see which wins.

    Thanks.
     
  13. uriah1

    uriah1 Telefied Gold Supporter

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    Ribs closer together and count have more refined highs IMHO.
     
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  14. Perregrintuk

    Perregrintuk TDPRI Member

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    In my opinion and my 5F1 is a Jensen RI P8R...swapped a lot of speakers and than I stayed with that one. Absolutely amazing Tweed sound imho. The speaker needs some time to loose the sharp highs but then its 3D like chime with clean and clear Fender sweetness.

    Just a little hairy if you crank the Champ up to 11. But I prefer lower gain settings with half way played with vintage P90 and Les Paul and SG Jr.
     
  15. alnicopu

    alnicopu Friend of Leo's

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    Oxford 8ev, assuming you can find one. Nuff said. “Move along, nothing else to see here, keep movin’”.
     
  16. Jakeboy

    Jakeboy Tele-Afflicted

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    5f1s are so dark....they need a bright speaker....find the right speaker and it is magic. I love mine.
     
  17. MickM

    MickM Friend of Leo's Platinum Supporter

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    My 5f1 is a Li'l Dawg combo with an oversize cab for a 12. Have a Celestion gold in it since new (8 yrs.?), it's not near at all dark and I've been playing thru it a bunch lately in tandem with a Mesa cab holding another gold. The 2 channels, which I recently started exploring, make it more versatile than it appears.
     
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