Carr Rambler Speaker

[mbcguitar]

Hi everyone, I've been reading threads on this forum for quite a while, but I finally decided it was time to join.

I play mostly jazz, blues, country, and early rock stuff, and I recently bought a used Carr Rambler with an Eminence Lil' Texas Neo speaker installed on eBay after I sold my Twin Reverb Reissue. My main complaint about the Twin was that I couldn't lift it by myself, but my secondary complaint was that it gave most overdrive/distortion pedals a very unpleasant, shrill sound to the highs. Everything I've read about the Ramblers has said that they are very pedal-friendly, but I found that, especially in pentode mode, the pedals I tried (TS808 clone, Hermida Zendrive, silicon Fuzz Face, Electro Harmonix Soul Food) sounded a lot like how they sounded with the TRRI.

The overall sound of the amp seems a bit stiff to me, and I'm wondering if there's another speaker that could give the amp a little more of a classic blackface sound, and work a little better with pedals. Any suggestions? The amp also included a Weber P12NT speaker with it - would this be a better match?

I've noticed a lot of people seem to really like the Lil' Texas with this amp, so I'm wondering if the problem is just me. Any other possible reasons why this might be happening?

 

[Wally]

Welcome, mbcguitar. I don't find it surprising that you are experiencing the same thing with the Carr that you did with the TRRI since they are both very similar amps....same type of preamp, same type of tone stack, same phase inverter...very similar amps.....or at least that is what I get reading the info at Carr Amps. That Rambler is based on the BF circuits....as is the TRRI since it is a reissue of an AB763 TR, right? Your experience mystifies me a bit since most people who use pedals find that circuit to be almost ideal for their purposes. That TS808, which was made famous by SRV running through those BF circuits, works with a TR and should work in that Carr.
How are you setting the controls on the amp? Those tone controls are touchy, and adding gain stages prior to the first tube in the map----meaning using those OD pedals----exacerbates the situation, ime. Imho, with higher volume settings in the preamp and/or more gain stages via pedals demand that the tone controls be set to lower levels than one would use in lower volume and/or lower gain situations. ,
As to the speaker, if there is an Alnico WEber that you got with the amp, put it in and give it a try. The high end should be much smoother in a distortion mode compared to many ceramic speakers, ime.

 

[telemnemonics]

That is something of a mystery, two pedal friendly amps sounding bad with gain pedals.

I have a lot of boost/ OD/ fuzz/ dist pedals, and at times have felt that ANY solid state gain pedal sounds unpleasant through ANY tube amp.
Maybe you're just a tube purist and will never be happy with SS distortion.
My solution (during these snobbish periods) has been to use tube dist pedals only.

I have also found that I can make a potentially good "sounding" SS OD/ dist pedal sound bad by using too much pedal gain and not enough pedal output.
If you run a "good sounding" OD pedal into a PA it will sound pretty bad.
IME you need to over drive the amp a bit (fairly big volume boost when pedal on) to get rid of the harsh unpleasant SS dist sound.
Depends on how much you like SS distortion; the first preamp amp tube improves the SS sound if you overdrive the tube, but many of us get used to and / or like some dist pedal sounds at unity gain (no vol boost with pedal on).

Oh, and Welcome to the TDPRI...
I have a Carr Hammerhead, no need for pedal distortion.
Wanna trade?

 

[telemnemonics]

For a bit of reference re: not liking SS distortion;

I do not like the TS808 or silicon fuzz.
I somewhat like a Zen Drive clone and a Klon clone (like Soul food), but only with a good amount of volume boost.
I do like the old two knob Voodoo Lab Overdrive, Violet Ram Muff clone, MJM London Fuzz (germanium FF clone), and Fulltone OCD at LOW dist settings. But still need to boost the amp a bit to get rid of the louder-but-still-SS pedal sound.

It's hard (or impossible) to beat an actual distorting tube amp with a distorting SS pedal.
BK Butler Tube Drivers and the Soldano GTO tube distortion pedals are "better" sounding ways of getting tube amp distortion.
Quite a few tube distortion pedals sound and feel fake to my ears.

Agree that alnico spkrs are an improvement, but like some ceramic and even neo speakers also.

 

[Wally]

telemnemonics, +1 with what you say. I have sold every TS808 or TS9 that I have bought. I have no use for them.
I also am with you on the tube distortion versus the SS distortion. I had a fellow bring in a $300 OD pedal to play thorugh an amp that has gorgeous overdrive in its all-tube circuit. I could switch back and forth from the pedal through the clean to the Gain functions in the amp....and his eyes went wide at the difference. HIs high dollar SS pedal couldn't touch what the tubes in the amp's circuit were doing. We need to remember that these pedals were invented back when there were no amps that had built-in overdrive functions....the pedals were the only game in town. Things have progressed, ime.
+1 on the Butler units...wall voltage...no 9 volt battery thing. Matchless and Mesa both have put out tube pedals that work, ime....again...powered by wall voltage.

 

[FenderLover]

I'm not too good at figuring out what other people hear, but the Rambler and the Twin are pretty dissimilar in topology, Wally. Similar preamps yes, but I'm almost certain the Rambler has a concertina inverter, the outputs are cathode biased, and there is no negative feedback. The preamp is BF, but the output is Tweed.
Why one would hear the same effect with two different amps doesn't sound a lot like an amp issue, and maybe it is more a speaker preference? Just thinkin' out loud and guessing like everyone else... good luck finding the magic sauce for that one.

 

[Wally]

FEnderLover, I will defer to you on the PI and the biasing. I figured that there was something like that going on there with the low output.
but...that BF gain and tone stack arrangement is there in the preamp, right? It is hard to get past that similarity no matter what goes on down the line, ime.
ONe good comparison of this woudl be the Princeton amps...6g compared to the BF/SF thing. That 6G2 has a gain/tone stack thing that is defintiely in the tweed domain while the Bf Princeton and Princeton Reverb have the BF tone stack. Very different amps..despite having the same PI and biasing as each other. Waht happens in that BF teon stack is amplified through the rest of the circuit...adn cannot be avoided.

I too am puzzled by the OP's inability to use a pedal with what shoudl be pedal friendly circuits. I saw the preamp similarities...adn I have to suspect that.
ONe might want to know with what amps mbcguitar has used those pedals with results that pleased him, right??? So...mbcguitar....what amps have you used those pedals in with good results to your ears?

 

[waparker4]

Turn down the tone control on the guitar when you turn the pedal on

 

[DaveKS]

Where and at what volumes are you playing these amps?

 

[mbcguitar]

Wow… Let me see if I can reply to everyone.

First off, I'm not expecting to top actual tube distortion with a solid state pedal, but I'm more just wondering why the pedals I have don't sound better than they do with these amps. I'm not really a fan of the 808 circuit either, but I mentioned it for the reason Wally brought up -- they're known to work with Fender-type amps.

I've had good results with pedals with a Blues Jr. NOS (w/ a Jenson speaker) I also have and with a Blues Deluxe and some of the new '68 custom Silverface amps I've tried out. I know the Twins (and blackface amps in general) have a reputation for being pedal-friendly, but IMO the standard, unmodded reissue ones are not. Proguitarshop says they use a DRRI for all of their Youtube demos but I emailed them and asked how they get it to sound good with every pedal they use and they said they installed a Mercury Magnetics transformer and run it through a Celestion G12H rather than the stock speaker, and I've heard of other people doing similar mods to tame the highs.

I usually set the Twin with the bass and treble around 5-6 and turned the mids down to 3-4, which sounded pretty blackface-y to me, but I experimented with turning down the treble and was never all that happy with the sound. With the Rambler I've tried similar settings, and that did sound a little better than the Twin, but I've still had the best results with cheaper amps, for some reason.

I may just try putting that Weber speaker into the Rambler. I wasn't sure if maybe the new Elsinore or some other Weber speaker would be better, but it's sounding like AlNiCo might be a solution.

 

[mbcguitar]

Oh, and I've played all these amps in different places, but I don't think I've ever had the volume above 4 on the Twin or the Rambler.

 

[Wally]

mbc, the two amps you mention...the Blues Jr. and the Blues Deluxe..are both based loosely on the 5F6A BAssman circuit. In those circuits, the tone stack is farther down the chain compared to the tone stack in that TR and the Carr. Teh B'face tyep of toen stack magnifies the tone settings in a way that the 5f6A BAssman type of circuit does not...because the tone stack settings are subject to the second as well as the third in the AB763 type of circuit whereas in the 5F6A/Marshall thing, the tone stack is amplified only by the 3rd gain stage.
So, you are accustomed to amps---bleus jr and blues deluxe-- that have basic functions that are different from the TR and the Carr. waparker might have a point....cut the trebles at the guitar??
I am also puzzled as to how the '68 Custom things can be much differetn from the TR and the Carr. The '68 Customs ahve a tone-modded 'Normal' Channel...but hte vib channels are the same as the TR...and the topogrpahy in the Normal channel is the same as the other channel....just different valeus for som caps and an added resistor...IIRC> Did you play thorugh both channels...or were you working in a '68 custom Princeton Reverb...different thing there...one channel and it is changed regarding toen caps and such.

 

[telemnemonics]

BF amps have pretty scooped mids, I pretty much always turn the mids up all the way and turn the treble and bass down lower.

May not apply to the Rambler.
The speaker might help, but from what I've read the Lil Texas is supposed to be a nice fat unharsh speaker.

Could be the Lil Texas is not broken in, which can sound pretty unpleasant, and that the issue with the Twin is different from the issue with the Rambler, even though it seems like the same issue.

 

[DaveKS]

Lil texas is a very bright speaker, see that peak at 1k and that huge peak at 2.5k (110db).

Everything your complaining about I'd point you to one of the hemp cones.

Canis Major and Tone Tubby Red occupy the high end, high dollar alnico niche. The CRex and TT 40/40 are ceramic, and more affordable.

Plus being hemp their much warmer overall and no high end spikiness. 40/40 is my fav speaker but really think CRex, Canis Major and Tone Tubby Red are exactly what your looking for.

 

[waparker4]

Wow… Let me see if I can reply to everyone.

First off, I'm not expecting to top actual tube distortion with a solid state pedal, but I'm more just wondering why the pedals I have don't sound better than they do with these amps. I'm not really a fan of the 808 circuit either, but I mentioned it for the reason Wally brought up -- they're known to work with Fender-type amps.

I've had good results with pedals with a Blues Jr. NOS (w/ a Jenson speaker) I also have and with a Blues Deluxe and some of the new '68 custom Silverface amps I've tried out. I know the Twins (and blackface amps in general) have a reputation for being pedal-friendly, but IMO the standard, unmodded reissue ones are not. Proguitarshop says they use a DRRI for all of their Youtube demos but I emailed them and asked how they get it to sound good with every pedal they use and they said they installed a Mercury Magnetics transformer and run it through a Celestion G12H rather than the stock speaker, and I've heard of other people doing similar mods to tame the highs.

I usually set the Twin with the bass and treble around 5-6 and turned the mids down to 3-4, which sounded pretty blackface-y to me, but I experimented with turning down the treble and was never all that happy with the sound. With the Rambler I've tried similar settings, and that did sound a little better than the Twin, but I've still had the best results with cheaper amps, for some reason.

I may just try putting that Weber speaker into the Rambler. I wasn't sure if maybe the new Elsinore or some other Weber speaker would be better, but it's sounding like AlNiCo might be a solution.

You like these demos w/ a more midrange speaker, you like these other amps with a more midrange response. Yet you are setting your twin mids at 3. Set them higher.

Set the bass and treble lower on the Twin and set the channel volume higher.

See what Bass/mid/treb 1/10/1 sounds like



If you're not using both channels on the Twin, and want reverb/tremolo always, consider putting reverb on both channels (simple circuit mod). Then you can use an A/B selector pedal and put your overdrive in the B path. Send the overdrive to its own channel. Now you can EQ your blackface cleans anyway you want on the vibrato channel, and EQ your normal channel to better suit your overdrive. :idea: Or don't do the circuit mod, then your cleans have reverb and your drive tones don't. Which is nice too.

 

[telemnemonics]

Lil texas is a very bright speaker, see that peak at 1k and that huge peak at 2.5k (110db).

Everything your complaining about I'd point you to one of the hemp cones.

Canis Major and Tone Tubby Red occupy the high end, high dollar alnico niche. The CRex and TT 40/40 are ceramic, and more affordable.

Plus being hemp their much warmer overall and no high end spikiness. 40/40 is my fav speaker but really think CRex, Canis Major and Tone Tubby Red are exactly what your looking for.

Somehow I had gotten the idea that the Lil Texas was less bright and more middy than the Tonkerlight, which is a little brighter than Red Fangs...
The Tonkerlight sounds pretty nice in a mid heavy amp, maybe too bright for a scooped mid amp.

I was looking for a used Lil Texas to try for myself, very glad I didn't go for it, way mistaken.

Are there any hemp cone neos out there?

 

[mbcguitar]

DaveKS, I'm glad someone could make some sense of why I'm not a fan of the Lil' Texas. I don't know the first thing about what those charts mean but if that means the speaker is really bright that would match my impressions of it!

I've been looking at the hemp cone speakers on and off for a while, partly because I thought about putting one in a Blues Jr. until I found the one I have now that has a Jenson. Maybe I should just bite the bullet and try one in the Rambler. Any opinions on which one would be the best for that amp, or any experience with them in Fender-type amps? (Dave, I know you said those three would be good, but what would you say if you had to choose one?)

Oh, and for the record, I sold the Twin to buy the Rambler because of the weight issue.

 

[DaveKS]

Well if budget a concern then ceramics are best bet.

CRex and TT 40/40. I ran CRex and 40/40 side by side in matching amps for four months, in end sold Rex and got another 40/40.

TT has a little more top end sparkle than Rex. Rex has pinch more bottom end and mellower mids, it's slightly more American voiced, TT is voiced a little bit more Brit but not much.

For what your asking either would be fine, Rex does blues, country, classic rock wonderfully. But I think the the 40/40 is one of the best does it all extremely well speakers in its price range made today. Of course it's also about $40 more than Rex but to me worth the extra. Rich and full, but really lets your amps voice still shine through. That little bit of upper end sparkle is what sold me on it over Rex, but like hemp cones should, it's never fizzy or fatiguing.

But as with all things speaker, this is IMHO, YMMV. Personal prefs are hard to gauge, you might end up liking that P12n better, but I doubt it.

Here's another chart to confuse you.

 

[DaveKS]

Somehow I had gotten the idea that the Lil Texas was less bright and more middy than the Tonkerlight, which is a little brighter than Red Fangs...
The Tonkerlight sounds pretty nice in a mid heavy amp, maybe too bright for a scooped mid amp.

I was looking for a used Lil Texas to try for myself, very glad I didn't go for it, way mistaken.

Are there any hemp cone neos out there?

There's this one seller on eBay I noticed that does them.
(link removed)

What the base speaker is I have no idea, nor can I atest to quality of the recone.

 

[nic'o'caster]

'Stiff sounding' and 'Rambler' usually don't go in the same sentence ! I wonder if your Lil Texas might not be well broken in yet. It takes time before neo speakers loosen up a bit and even when they're fully broken-in they remain very even sounding and punchy, which can sound stiff if one's used to alnico speakers.

I've tried many dirt pedals in my Rambler and all of them worked fantastic in that amp, none of them sounded the way you describe it. Keep in mind than my Rambler still have its original Emi Wizard though. One advice I would give is to set your amp and pedals loud and use the volume on your guitar. I had that Keeley fuzz Head that I almost sold before I discovered the magic tones lied in my guitar volume and tone controls.

One last thing : don't expect your Rambler to sound like a blackface clone, because it's not one per se. But you can get really close in pentode mode by adjusting the powerful EQ section.