Caps From Tone to Volume vs Grounded to Tone

[BlueShadows]

So I have put together quite a few different wiring configurations for a number of different guitars, but have always just followed diagrams and never really took the time to understand why I was wiring things the way I was, other than because the diagram just told me to do so. Today I was doing a deeper dive into the difference between modern vs 60s vs 50s as I am putting together a new build and one rabbit hole led to another. But then for all of the wiring diagrams I am looking at for my new build (dual p90s) I was noticing that the cap on the tone pot is grounded to the tone pot itself with a jumper going to volume, rather than the cap itself serving as the jumper.

So it got me to thinking, does this matter sonically or is it just another way of wiring the same thing? For example, does the cap on Lug 3 of the tone pot grounded to the tone pot with a jumper from Lug 2 to volume input do the same thing as having the cap on Lug 2 of tone running to the volume input? Or in more simple terms, I suppose my question is what is the difference between having your cap grounded to tone vs running to a volume lug?

 

[AAT65]

Makes no difference electrically or sonically. If you’re making 1000s every month you work out which way is cheaper (by pennies if you are lucky) and do it that way.

 

[BlueShadows]

Makes no difference electrically or sonically. If you’re making 1000s every month you work out which way is cheaper (by pennies if you are lucky) and do it that way.

Thanks, that is sort of what I figured. Then is it all about the placement of the cap on the tone pot to achieve 50s vs modern wiring? For example, cap on lug 2 of tone pot grounded to pot with jumper between lug 3 and volume input = the same as cap on lug 3 of running to volume input?

 

[dsutton24]

... what is the difference between having your cap grounded to tone vs running to a volume lug?

I said volume pot lug grounded? If so, it makes no difference. If not, the cap is doing something other than a standard tone circuit. Punctuation and / or drawings would help decipher this question.

 

[BlueShadows]

I couldn’t find an unpunctuated sentence in my question, but here is a drawing for what I am asking

 

[schmee]

So I have put together quite a few different wiring configurations for a number of different guitars, but have always just followed diagrams and never really took the time to understand why I was wiring things the way I was, other than because the diagram just told me to do so. Today I was doing a deeper dive into the difference between modern vs 60s vs 50s as I am putting together a new build and one rabbit hole led to another. But then for all of the wiring diagrams I am looking at for my new build (dual p90s) I was noticing that the cap on the tone pot is grounded to the tone pot itself with a jumper going to volume, rather than the cap itself serving as the jumper.

So it got me to thinking, does this matter sonically or is it just another way of wiring the same thing? For example, does the cap on Lug 3 of the tone pot grounded to the tone pot with a jumper from Lug 2 to volume input do the same thing as having the cap on Lug 2 of tone running to the volume input? Or in more simple terms, I suppose my question is what is the difference between having your cap grounded to tone vs running to a volume lug?

It depends, that jumper may be serving to ground the other pot if it's not grounded otherwise......

 

[NoTeleBob]

Those two diagrams are equivalent electronically. Some will probably argue there's a difference, but it's not one you will ever hear.

The key with 50's wiring vs. 60's is on the volume pot. That is, which contact the signal comes in on and where the tone pot attaches to the volume pot:

 

[LutherBurger]

I like running the capacitor leg through the V pot's ground lug and soldering it to the V pot's case. That just seems like the easiest way to do it. But you have to be sure that the cap leg is solidly connected to both points, or it will cause problems.

 

[Swirling Snow]

To your question, no, no difference. Like 3+5=8 and 5+3=8.

 

[old_picker]

I've always done it as shown below - again a different flavour -
I have doubts anyone will hear any difference in an A B test between the different methods of deploying the tone cap given the same guitar, amp and settings. I generally use a .047uf tone cap though.

Herein does lie a question - what differences would we be hearing between a standard 0.047uf and a 0.022uf tone cap?
Generally I use a 0.022uf cap with 500k pots.

Yet another question - What is recommended for 1meg pots?

 

[BlueShadows]

Those two diagrams are equivalent electronically. Some will probably argue there's a difference, but it's not one you will ever hear.

The key with 50's wiring vs. 60's is on the volume pot. That is, which contact the signal comes in on and where the tone pot attaches to the volume pot:


View attachment 1128941

Thanks, this is the exact image I was basing my question on because I was having a hard time wrapping my head around the difference between Modern and 60s in the above image. I get that there will be a difference in capping the signal output vs the input on the volume pot, but on the tone pot what is happening between lugs 2 and 3 to cause a difference between Modern and 60s?

 

[Swirling Snow]

Electrically and audibly, there is no difference between the 60's and the modern.

The modern method makes all pots identical for ease of assembly.

 

[BlueShadows]

Got it, thanks!

 

[Dan German]

My brain hurts.

 

[Willie Johnson]

I have 50's wiring on a Tele-ish/Esquire-y guitar with one Mean 90 bridge pickup, 500k pots and an old .015 wax paper cap out of a 50's hifi amp. It's weirdly interactive, but I like it.

 

[Tuxedo Poly]

Down to component level
The tone potentiometer is used as a resistor that you can change the value of by rotating the knob. The potentiometer is connected to a capacitor. One end of these two components is connected to ground, the other to the pickup output. It is this combination of resistance and capacitance that changes the tone by passing different frequencies to ground.
It doesn't matter in which order they are connected to each other or where the ground is.

Modern Fender Teles generally use a layout similar to old_pickers with one major difference - the output ground is soldered to the volume pot not the tone pot. Vintage flavor Fender Teles still have the ground on the tone pot I guess for authenticity.

With this layout all the grounds are in one location, there is no chance of a loose tone pot causing loss of ground connection to the pickups and capacitor.

With apologies to @old_picker

 

[TimTam]

Herein does lie a question - what differences would we be hearing between a standard 0.047uf and a 0.022uf tone cap?

Through the first half of dialling down the tone pot - basically none.

That first half or so of the filter's cutoff is all due to the pot (resistance). The effect of the cap only kicks in after that, as you dial down to zero.
ie the frequency response curves overlap for pot settings of 10 to say 6 - regardless of cap value - until you get to the lower settings on the tone pot (5 to 0), when the curves start to separate with different cap values ...

The effect of Tone Capacitors | GuitarNutz 2

Moved, as previously posted. This post is about tone capacitors in a normal treble cut guitar tone control. Tone Capacitors This simple component can cause confusion, and expense

guitarnuts2.proboards.com

So if you never wind your tone pot down below 5, quibbling about cap values is basically pointless.

 

[bblumentritt]

Those two diagrams are equivalent electronically. Some will probably argue there's a difference, but it's not one you will ever hear.

The key with 50's wiring vs. 60's is on the volume pot. That is, which contact the signal comes in on and where the tone pot attaches to the volume pot:


View attachment 1128941

I prefer the '50s wiring for my Tele. There's even a name for this mod. There are several threads on this mod. Fezz Parka calls it the Ted Greene mod, because that's who he says he got it from. You can see it here.

 

[NoTeleBob]

I prefer the '50s wiring for my Tele. There's even a name for this mod. There are several threads on this mod. Fezz Parka calls it the Ted Greene mod, because that's who he says he got it from. You can see it here.

The "50's wiring" nomenclature came from Gibson as it was how they wired back then. I don't know what Fender did with Telecasters back then (?).

For the record, I like to see the tone pot case grounded for shielding purposes. It's often grounded through its mounting but I don't like to count on that.