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Can't bring myself to buy a Joyo pedal, new or used

Discussion in 'The Stomp Box' started by CV Jee Beez, Aug 26, 2018.

  1. Charlie Bernstein

    Charlie Bernstein Poster Extraordinaire

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    No, actually, I agree with you, which is why I didn't have qualms about buying the two Joyo pedals I mentioned.

    In fact, I have a vivid memory of being kept out of the UAW parking lot in Hartford, Connecticut, years ago because I was driving a Datsun.

    I said, "But but but - I bought it used! From a Hartford guy! Every cent stayed right here. You can't point to any of the new cars parked here and say that!"

    Nonetheless, I like buying American. It means I know my union-made Guild wasn't assembled by prisoners. It means my USACG and Warmoth bodies and necks weren't made in sweatshops. It means my OMI Dobro was largely a US product. It means that my Tennessee and Missouri mandos were made by people who don't dump toxic waste into the nearest river.

    And I like that. To me, that's what buying USA is about. No, it's not a perfect world. God forbid! But I like to think my buying choices help put money into the pockets of people I respect.
     
  2. bgmacaw

    bgmacaw Poster Extraordinaire

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    "Sent from my iPhone"....
     
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  3. telepraise

    telepraise Tele-Afflicted

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    I tried a Joyo peddle a couple of years back. The pots were so scratchy and the footswitch erratic that I sent it right back to Amazon. Perhaps they've gotten better. I've since bought a few American pedals, mostly because of great reviews I read, but I do like supporting American entrepreneurs. I'm in the fortunate position that paying more for American products is not anything I have to worry about, many musicians don't have that luxury. I like solidly built of quality materials, dependable products. As a woodworker, I spent $270 on a Bosch sander that is Swiss made. It is an absolute dream to use. But I went through a half dozen $70 Chinese built sanders that are now in the landfill, so I do consider country of origin in making my purchases.
     
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  4. Charlie Bernstein

    Charlie Bernstein Poster Extraordinaire

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    I used to work for INFACT, the nonprofit that led Nestle and GE boycotts. One of the key questions to answer when you're wondering whether a boycott will win is: Is there an alternative?

    You can win a boycott of chocolate or lightbulbs because there are plenty of other comparable brands out there. Cadwell. Sylvania.

    Are you old enough to remember the iceberg lettuce boycott of the sixties and seventies? Its slogan: Be humane, buy romaine. It worked because there was a reasonable alternative. (A lot of folks even discovered they liked romaine better and never went back to iceberg.)

    If there were a reasonable alternative to my iMac, I'd get it. There isn't. So I happily bang away on my import. And love it.
     
  5. Marc Morfei

    Marc Morfei Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    I agree with OP that it feels wrong to buy a cheap Chinese rip-off of an more expensive American-designed product. We should reward American enterprise. But sorting out this dilemma is like peeling an onion (you know, like Shrek said). Does a $40 Joyo pedal really sound all that worse than a $150 Boss pedal or $250 boutique pedal? Maybe, maybe not. Asian companies have been copying American innovation for 50 years to deliver less expensive versions of all kinds of products - that's the nature of commerce, and we're not gonna stop it. So, bottom line, there is no clear answer, I guess we should all just do what we want without guilt.
     
  6. beninma

    beninma Friend of Leo's

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    Just wanted to clarify circuits absolutely are IP.. Someone already posted a link to the Wikipedia article, but misinterpreted it.

    Circuit designs just get handled differently than music or movies or software code. (Shorter copyright term of 10 years is a big one.. maybe something that would be good for other copyrights too!)

    What is more likely going on is these pedal circuits are so simple and have been shared around so much it's not worth the time to pay a lawyer to file a copyright claim on your design. (Maybe some guys do though?)

    You better believe "real" circuits like computer architectures, or controllers for turbines, or flight control units for aircraft get put through the appropriate legal machinery to protect their designs. When China tries to steal some of those things it is a BIG deal.

    The company I work for is one of the largest holders of computer circuit IP in the world.. I don't know exactly how much but the licensing fees is in the hundreds of millions of dollars per year. Apple and Qualcomm are going through a fight over circuit IP right now. China has been working very hard to steal the IP for certain types of DRAM memory chips from Micron (Taiwainese company), and that is a very big deal and is very much on our government's radar.

    An OD is dead simple. A circuit with > 1 billion components is not (an iPhone has > 4 billion), so it gets protected.
     
  7. bottlenecker

    bottlenecker Friend of Leo's

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    Someone mentioned jhs and it made me realize I have the same issue with jhs as with joyo. They don't contribute anything that I personally value, so I personally don't like them. I guess my pedalboard might look cooler with a jhs than a joyo, but I'd sooner buy a joyo.
    Catalinbread, zvex, proco, boss, on the other hand, have contributed developments that I value. So maybe I don't really care where it's made, but ive come to expect good things when I see made in japan, and trash when I see made in china.
     
  8. cyclopean

    cyclopean Poster Extraordinaire

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    and how many pedals made by more expensive companies are just small variations on old circuits?
     
  9. Paul Jenkin

    Paul Jenkin Friend of Leo's

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    I like watching the YouTube vids from Andertons (and others) where they do blind tests of this guitar/ amp / pedal costing pennies versus a much higher priced version.

    The cheaper item usually fares very well against the more expensive counterpart but, almost invariably, the more expensive item has more expensive components and/or the slightly better build quality gives the tester the clue as to which is which. We're left to decide whether the cheaper one is "good enough" or if we'd be prepared to stump up for the dearer one.

    Almost all guitars are "foreign" made, from the UK perspective, so I suspect most of us couldn't care less where the item is made, so long as it does the job and is within our budget.

    It's an increasingly global market and, even if something is assembled in one country, it's very likely that many of the components are made elsewhere - and it's the labour costs that are often the most expensive element.

    We're transitioning from the 3rd industrial revolution (Computerisation and Automation) into the 4th industrial revolution (Cyber physical systems). Boutique and custom shop goods only exist because individuals are prepared to pay a significant premium for hand-built goods.

    So, when a computer using a piece of software in one country can control a production line (or 3-D printer) in another country - maybe where the order was placed - the argument about supporting our home markets will become increasingly redundant.

    This is in no way a political statement or opinion - just me thinking that what we make and where we make it is changing and the analogy used earlier of King Cnut trying (but failing) to hold back the waves, is probably very close to where we are right now.
     
  10. Norris Vulcan

    Norris Vulcan Tele-Afflicted

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    If the Beach Boys had been African-American, that would be a different story...
     
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  11. Vladimir

    Vladimir Friend of Leo's

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    So you're saying they have no respect for the intellectual property of American original pedals, like the DM's, CE's and TS's, right?
     
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  12. alathIN

    alathIN Tele-Holic

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    Almost all boutique pedals are basically mods of someone else's mass produced circuit.
    If you took all the pedals off the market that were basically Ibanez tubescreamers, there would be no boutique drive pedals.
    I don't see anything inherently different about a small American company vs a large Asian company re-marketing someone else's circuit.
     
  13. alathIN

    alathIN Tele-Holic

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    What if an American boutique pedals builder is selling a slightly modded Ibanez tubescreamer?
    I think you'd have to reward Japanese enterprise

    Ultimately, I think you're right. just about anything we buy is based on largely irrational decisions and personal feelings.
    Where it turns into arguments, is when people try to couch their personal preferences in terms of economics or intellectual property law.
    As soon as you start using terms like rip off or counterfeit, or make claims about how you're supporting one country's economy versus another, you're making claims to objective criteria and real-world outcomes.

    If you say "it makes me feel good to buy things with American sounding brand names," that's not really arguable.

    If you imply that buying a Honda is unpatriotic or damaging to the American economy, you should expect some pushback.
     
  14. fasteddie42

    fasteddie42 Tele-Afflicted

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    ...except some American businessman likley contracted the work to begin with.

    All while whining about nationalism, and 'murica first.

    Is there a anything more American than wanton capitalism?
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018
  15. Count

    Count Friend of Leo's

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    Isn’t wanton a Chinese dumpling? [emoji3][emoji3][emoji3]
     
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  16. Charlie Bernstein

    Charlie Bernstein Poster Extraordinaire

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    Yup! Hence my wonton disregard for all the crap China keeps dumpling on us! (Too bad so many folks have a yen for it . . . .)
     
  17. Count

    Count Friend of Leo's

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    Don’t you mean a “yuan for it” [emoji16]
     
  18. Junkyard Dog

    Junkyard Dog Friend of Leo's

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    Joyo is GREAT! Their pedals are available for a fraction of the price of the competition.

    In the spirit of full disclosure, I am one of Joyo's endorsed artists. I was early adopter, and an influencer here locally in the DC area music scene, so I got onboard that way.
     
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  19. studio1087

    studio1087 Telefied Silver Supporter

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    Boss = Taiwan
    Ibanez = Taiwan or China
    MXR = Chinese parts assembled in the USA
    Electro-Harmonix = “outsourced” parts assembled in the USA
    Rogue = China
    Joyo = China

    They all copy ideas from each other.

    I like EH for affordable pedals. They are assembled here.

    I have a Joyo Trem and a Joyo delay and I think the Tremolo is outstanding. I have many pedals and I haven’t bought many Joyo pedals because local stores do not carry them. For me it’s Joyo via China-Direct ebay Sales (that’s how I have to do it) and I like to try pedals.

    I believe this about Joyo. They’re going to market at fair prices and I respect that. Boss pedals are probably marked up 600% before we touch them. Perhaps Joyo is only doubling their money.

    The markup on a typical simple distortion box must be obscene. Joyo isn’t screwing you. Give Joyo some credit!
     
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  20. DTBlues

    DTBlues Tele-Meister

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    I have had more ehx pedals die than joyos. It is what it is. I am a cheap bastard so joyos work just as good as boss ehx mxr for me.
     
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