BSB roasted ash?

Discussion in 'Finely Finished' started by SingleBucker90, Dec 17, 2018.

  1. SingleBucker90

    SingleBucker90 TDPRI Member

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    hi, this is my first post here. I am currently behind the great firewall in China so my Google-Fu has been gelded. I have a Warmoth roasted ash body waiting for me at home to finish this business trip. I would like to have a transparent butterscotch color but worried about the wood being too dark.

    I’ve attached my body and an image of what I am going for.
    F798E49E-8D47-400C-AD6E-EF392BBE1394.jpeg
    11314B5E-D7A1-4FB5-BC1A-63D65E2C0483.jpeg

    Please correct me if I am wrong in my thinking. I assume the body needs to be whitewashed, however I want to be able to see the grain, so use dark grain filler, then add tint over the white/darkened grain.

    Any input and advise will be much appreciated. Thanks guys
     
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  2. TRexF16

    TRexF16 Friend of Leo's Vendor Member

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    I think that body will be fine for Butterscotch as is. And it looks to me like the picture you posted of your goal is more what might be called "butterscotch" than "butterscotch blond (BSB)". As i recall from the ReRanch site, the BSB is the classic, barely translucent finish you get when you put several coats of almost opaque white then topcoat with some amber, versus the butterscotch which is a lot more transparent. But I could be wrong. Others may chime in with their opinions/knowledge.
    Is the body already grain filled? It's a beaut and should turn out great.
     
  3. SingleBucker90

    SingleBucker90 TDPRI Member

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    Ah ok, maybe I had it backwards. I thought blonde was more transparent. I just picked it up on a trip back home to LA, and dropped it off where I live in Thailand, where I was for only 1 day before o had to fly back out for work. I did a quick test fit of the neck and bridge, put it in the rack the headed back to the airport. I don’t know if it’s ready for anything or not yet.
     
  4. acrylicsuperman

    acrylicsuperman Tele-Afflicted

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    I asked Warmoth about Mary Kaye White on roasted ash once and they highly recommended against it. And since that isn't too far away from Butterscotch Blonde, that might not go well.
     
  5. SingleBucker90

    SingleBucker90 TDPRI Member

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    I want to dislike you for raining on my parade, but I appreciate your input. This is what I was worried about. Maybe it’s time to consider alternative color choices. Thank you.
     
  6. K-Line

    K-Line Tele-Holic Vendor Member

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    You would be fine with BSB. MK may turn a bit tan to pinkish, maybe not. Use a color of grain filler that is close to the dark grain. I have done BSB over roasted ash. Turned out great. Did not take a picture of it.
     
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  7. SingleBucker90

    SingleBucker90 TDPRI Member

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    Thank you! I just got home and able to google again, I found a Fender custom shop roasted ash and I’d be quite happy with the color. Maybe slightly darker grain or more transparent color. I’ll continue the journey
    C322BE87-7427-419C-A344-A1B2BA3627D8.jpeg
     
  8. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Platinum Supporter

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    "Butterscotch" - on a vintage guitar - is blonde that has yellowed over the years. So if done in an original-looking manner it should be semi-transparent. It should also have at least some level of checking, but that's optional and really should have some dit, oil, polish and other "schmutz" jammed in the crevices for it to look real. If you want to go that route, PM me - I don't like posting it as too many have taken shortcuts taken over the years with poor results.

    Generally, you don't want the grain to "pop" much - so the sequence would be (after prep) lacquer sanding sealer; non-tinted paste wood filler (which is essentially clear) - one or two passes with the first one roughly the consistency of cheap ketchup, and each scraped at a different angle to the grain; another coat of sanding sealer (with sanding before and after, obviously); then your desired color of lacquer toner, with NO sanding between coats, followed by clear lacquer. All lacquer coats should be 3 VERY light passes per coat, and only the last one or 2 coats should be smooth "flood" coats".

    At that point - unless there are any small runs to fix - You should be good to go straight to buffing!

    The kicker - PRACTICE! Take some scrap, prepare it, and apply the entire system...all the way through to buffing, including refining techniques, seeing how products interact, screwing up and solving problems and so on...until you have the whole process well- rehearsed and refined.

    THEN start on the actual guitar. Never before. Don't use that nice guitar body for basic learning. Use something that doesn't matter.

    Good luck!
     
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  9. RodeoTex

    RodeoTex Poster Extraordinaire

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    Forget the roasted part. That never was vintage anything.
     
  10. SingleBucker90

    SingleBucker90 TDPRI Member

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    Wow, thank you so much for sharing this info. Exactly what I was hoping for. Re: muck, schutz, wear, and tear, that’ll come naturally with the blood, sweat, and tears :)

    Re: natural wood grain filler, I thought I may need darker filler because wood is already darker... I guess if wood is darker, the grain will be equally darker, so it should be the same contrast?
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2018
  11. SingleBucker90

    SingleBucker90 TDPRI Member

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    I live in the tropics (Thailand) and more worried about moisture. I’ve read (don’t believe everything I read) that roasted wood is supposedly much less apt to absorb moisture with climate changes. I’m not too concerned about vintage correct, I want a guitar I like to play and want a couch, bathroom, and travel guitar. I fly internationally far two often (Thailand, Malaysia,Thailand, Hong Kong, Los Angeles, Minnesota, Los Angeles, Hong Kong, Thailand, China, Thailand this month alone) and want a guitar to keep me company :).
     
  12. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Platinum Supporter

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    There is no "should be" when it comes to color and contrast. It's "what do YOU want?". You may not be able to practice on the same wood, but you should be able to find something close enough to experiment on. I suggest using "Tints All" (in small tubes, highly concentrated) or "All Tint" universal colors for tinting. Most paint stores stock a rack of one or the other, and they're MUCH cheaper than dyes. And like dyes they don't screw up your dry time like stains do.

    DO NOT use more than 3-4 colors in a tint blend. More than that and you can end up with "metamerism", where the color can change radically under different light. I used to intentionally use a blend of 6 or 7 tints to make a reddish brown in training sessions or during plant tours - then walk the group outside, as they watched the color turn to green!:eek:

    Properly sealed/filled/coated wood absorbs VERY little moisture - and it releases very little as well, which is why wood with a relatively high moisture content (>15%, although most professionals use 11% as a cutoff point for ANY coating) can develop blisters, bubbles and peeling (in well-sealed areas) or tiny pinholes (where there are microscopic gaps, aka "holidays" - as in "painter's holiday a term in the trade for gaps, skips etc).

    Both are caused by moisture - whether water or solvent - being trapped in the wood. The term is "out gassing" (some say "off gassing" - same thing).

    Blistering/bubbling/peeling also happen if coats are applied too heavily, especially in hot weather -even to sealed wood. In those cases the term is "solvent entrapment". Because lacquer dries by evaporation, if it skins over before full evaporation takes place it still melts into previous coats, but the solvent can go anywhere. So it expands and creates a blister etc etc.

    This is why it's SO critical to apply only thin coats comprised of thin, transparent "passes"no matter what the conditions are. In nearly any acceptable temp/humidity conditions 23 passes can be applied fairly quickly, and additional coats in minutes - the solvents "flash off" very quickly and can't be trapped.

    AND so critical to PRACTICE - especially to refine your technique to the point that you KNOW when the last coat or two can e applied as smooth "flood coats, saving you from surface sanding. Which is tricky and adds ANOTHER set of variables - the right paper (not the junk from Harbor Freight!) and right grit, a good sanding block, the right lubricant, knowing when the paper has "loaded" and consistent, even (and light) pressure - including on corners

    Refine you spray technique and understand the conditions, materials and surface. You won't sand anything but small runs.

    And to actually remain on-topic - if you're doing a full coatings job don't worry about moisture absorption - BUT test the wood for moisture content before coating - an electronic moisture meter is cheap ($15-25). I use one on EVEWRY body or neck I coat!
     
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  13. SingleBucker90

    SingleBucker90 TDPRI Member

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    I live in the tropics (Thailand) and more worried about moisture. I’ve read (don’t believe everything I read) that roasted wood is supposedly much less apt to absorb moisture with climate changes. I’m not too concerned about vintage correct, I want a guitar I like to play and want a couch, bathroom, and travel guitar. I fly internationally far two often (Thailand, Malaysia,Thailand, Hong Kong, Los Angeles, Minnesota, Los Angeles, Hong Kong, Thailand, China, Thailand this month alone) and want a guitar to keep me company :)
    WOW. Thank you so much! With your (apparent) experience and way of simple to understand writing, you should seriously consider writing a book on finishing.
     
  14. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Platinum Supporter

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    Thanks for the compliment!

    FWIW - I actually started a book several years ago, and I consider getting back to it every time I get hold of another guitar finishing book.

    Virtually every instrument finishing book I've read either ignores safety equipment & a safe spray environment (THE #1 issue when using lacquer. People die simply due to ignorance), is written around a specific product brand (but usually without saying so - and doesn't apply well to some others), includes procedures that are unnecessary and should be in a "what do I do if I screw up?" chapter, don't account for working qualities of different brands and/or are very outdated.

    I have not found one that I think a beginner should use, although each has *some* good material. But how does a "rookie" know what's what? It's a real pickle, and I simply don't have an answer. But I will specifically warn against a spray-can guitar "factory finish" book being sold on major commercial websites. It not only recommends useless safety equipment & ignores most safety procedures, but violates safe use of lacquer that's published on product Material Safety Data Sheets! . It also has very odd procedures throughout. I won't name it - but you'll know it immediately.

    Similar problems exist with here today-gone tomorrow finishing websites and the frightening number of "hey, I've finished a guitar! I think I'll do an instructional info on YouTube doing my second one!" instructional videos. Anyone can post a video, and to be safe I recommend ignoring all the private-party "selfie" ones. Even fairly good commercially-produced videos are either based on one manufacturer's products or a single system in one set of weather conditions.

    My "book problem is that I worked too long in the industry - and to cover the wide variety of products, application methods and conditions just in the US I'd have to dedicate all my time to it - and live to be 126! :lol:

    So I try to be helpful on a more "focused" basis, providing advice, answering questions and troubleshooting in areas I've been working at for many years - finishing, electronics and guitar setups.

    Sorry for getting way off-topic, but the "book" subject opened a side door - with a hornet's nest inside!:D
     
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  15. Festus_Hagen

    Festus_Hagen Tele-Holic

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    That body will look great in BSB! I'd grain-fill with black after sealing, then sand the GF back to where it's just in the grains, and then shoot it!

    Here's a few recent ones I did. ReRanch BSB on 'em.

    20181002_212200.jpg


    20181212_132835.jpg
    20181212_130256.jpg
     
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  16. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Platinum Supporter

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    The most common method to get the grain to "pop"! If you can't get black you can tint most grain filler/paste wood filler. I use Mohawk, which is essentially clear when dry - I've done some "butterscotch" (although I do a more subtle color) and have used reddish brown filler; deep rust/orange; and even black with blue in it.

    Black usually has some amount of blue, but at times I'd make the filler an obvious blued/black - then use a toner with a hint of green, which "kills" the obvious blue yet the grain really stands out in a 3-dimensional way that draws attention because it's unidentifiable in a good way.

    I hope it's obvious that these are things you experiment with and test, with sealer, filler, toner AND clear. Because lacquer becomes one coat, different dyes, stains and tints are sometimes "drawn" into higher levels - even into the clear coats. You can get some amazing effects with a little experimentation.
     
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  17. SingleBucker90

    SingleBucker90 TDPRI Member

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    Anyone still interested in this thread, I got my guitar painted. It took about a month to get it back and then as it often does, life got in the way and I forgot about this thread.

    The paint did “deaden” the vibration of the body a bit, but it’s still a very live,active feeling guitar. The roasted maple neck is great. Slowly feeling a little smoother the more I play it and finger oil soaks into the wood. All in all I’m very happy with the guitar and would do it all again.
     

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  18. heffus

    heffus Tele-Holic

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    Nice. Love the grain on the body.
     
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