Brown Princeton vs. Tweed Vibrolux

[Whoa Tele]

Ive read that these two circuits are very similar and was hoping you fine folks could enlighten me as to how they are different. I'm mainly into clean tones and clean headroom (so I might be barking up the wrong tree here). But Which amp has the better clean tones and stays cleaner as you turn up the volume? I currently own the following. Thanks
Lil DawgWonderdawg and 5e3 Deluxe
Vintage Sound 15 Princeton clone

 

[Snfoilhat]

Vibrolux 5F11


Princeton 6G2


What jumps out to me is the input network. On a real Vibrolux it looks like the instrument signal is going to be attenuated more than in the Princeton, lowering gains throughout.

But a modern reproduction of a Vibrolux won't necessarily be built this way, and I don't know how much difference it makes. I suppose you could calculate it.

Second, the Vibrolux has a smaller screen-dropping resistor. I associate screen voltages that are closer to plate voltages with higher headroom, so maybe (maybe) the Vibrolux has higher headroom, but all the other voltages matter and how the amp is operating (bias, load line, blah blah) may have a much bigger effect on headroom we couldn't predict just from this schematic and its partial list of idle voltages ±20%.

Third, and contrarily, the better filtering in the 6G2 may let it handle the power demands of lower notes that can make an amp sound less clean when playing on the low strings.

Which amp has the better clean tones and stays cleaner as you turn up the volume?

Speaker choice may be more important than any other difference. Higher dB means lower volume settings for the the same volume in the room. The lower the volume on the amp is set, the better the headroom (the less likely a big change in playing dynamics will push the amp to overdrive). Good luck.

 

[Whoa Tele]

Thanks my friend but I'm tech challenged and a lot of the electronic stuff goes right over my head. I will probably buy something from Lil Dawg and Jim makes pretty accurate clones from my experience and the feedback from others. I appreciate the response.

 

[King Fan]

If you're going to buy something from LilDawg, you probably don't need our advice. Jim can help you dial in exactly the right amp and then the right build specs and components.

That said, if I was going to a place called "clean tones and clean headroom", I wouldn't start from 6G2. I'm not sure a 5F11 is all that much cleaner. The 6G2 isn't a dirt machine, but clean and headroom, not so much.

If your WonderDawg isn't the clean you mean, make sure you can tell Jim what you *do* want. What amp / sound / song / tone are you going for?

 

[theprofessor]

To piggyback on what @King Fan just said, you cannot go wrong with Jim Nickelson and his amps. He's a wonderful person and delivers a very high-quality build with loads of responsiveness in the process. But as King Fan also said, neither of these circuits is primarily about clean.

If I were looking for clean, I'd go Vibrolux or Deluxe Reverb or their clones. Unless you need something really, really loud like a Super or a Twin.

If I could buy one amp from Jim, it would be the Wonderdawg. It looks and sounds totally awesome. Combine a Deluxe and a Super in a Princeton Reverb-sized package. Run that mother on some vintage Tung-Sol 5881's, and you'll likely think you've died and gone to heaven.

Check out his sound clip with a Strat:

http://new.littledawgamps.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/wd_strat_clean_1.mp3

*EDIT*: HAHAHAHA - I went back and read the original post, and you already have a Wonderdawg! Sorry to be so dumb.

 

[dan40]

A non reverb Princeton might be what your after. Without the reverb and associated stages, this amp stays clean all the way up the dial.

 

[theprofessor]

A non reverb Princeton might be what your after. Without the reverb and associated stages, this amp stays clean all the way up the dial.

If you're looking for a non-reverb Princeton, here you go (no affiliation)
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...inceton-non-reverb-700.2047958/#post-28662706

And if for a 6G2 (brown Princeton) clone, here you go (no affiliation)
(link removed)

 

[RoscoeElegante]

FWIW, the Excelsior Pro's circuit is close to the 6G2--and its Eminence 1518 speaker can give you big cleans. Much less expensive than the other options here and takes pedals very well (especially since it doesn't have an onboard reverb).

 

[Whoa Tele]

Thanks guys. I already have a Wonderdawg and Tweed Deluxe from Jim and have talkedto him about the Chocoprince.
So,I figured the Brown Princeton circuit would kind of fill that middle ground between tweed and blackface. Jim builds them up to 25 watts a that might be enough with an efficient speaker. I've just read a positive comments regarding the clean tones of the brown amps. At lower volumes I imagine.

 

[Whoa Tele]

FWIW, the Excelsior Pro's circuit is close to the 6G2--and its Eminence 1518 speaker can give you big cleans. Much less expensive than tour other options here and takes pedals very well (especially since it doesn't have an onboard reverb).

Thanks Roscoe. I owned an Exclesior about five years ago and it just seemed a little harsh with my teles. I did not have the Eminence speaker as mine wasn't the pro.

 

[theprofessor]

Thanks guys. I already have a Wonderdawg and Tweed Deluxe from Jim and have talkedto him about the Chocoprince.
So,I figured the Brown Princeton circuit would kind of fill that middle ground between tweed and blackface. Jim builds them up to 25 watts a that might be enough with an efficient speaker. I've just read a positive comments regarding the clean tones of the brown amps. At lower volumes I imagine.

The Choco Prince would be a great amp, but you'd need the 25W output transformer for it to get really loud. It does offer some very nice clean tones, depending on what guitar you use. I built a 6G2 last year and documented it extensively: http://www.tdpri.com/threads/brown-princeton-6g2-build.856867/

If you're using a Tele with low-output pickups, you can get cleans way up the dial--at least if you bias the amp properly (I'd recommend around 60% for these bias-wiggle tremolo amps). But with something like P-90's or humbuckers, you get some wonderful gritty tones early in the dial. I find that the 6g2 is a difficult amp to choose a speaker for; it doesn't just take any good-sounding speaker. The Eminence GB128 has been great in mine. If you'd like any volume or fullness at all, I'd highly recommend a baffle with a 12" cutout instead of a 10" one.

 

[Whoa Tele]

Thanks Professor. I appreciate the insight.

 

[Snfoilhat]

Thank goodness some people who have played the Vibrolux and the Princeton chimed in

I have a question: does a modern builder who does a 5F11-inspired amp wire up the input jacks like the original Fender schematic shows? How does input #1 work?

 

[ce24]

A non reverb Princeton might be what your after. Without the reverb and associated stages, this amp stays clean all the way up the dial.

Yes they do...I have a vintage 69 non verb.....clean all the way. It's a perfect pedal platform.

 

[Bob Arbogast]

Thank goodness some people who have played the Vibrolux and the Princeton chimed in

I have a question: does a modern builder who does a 5F11-inspired amp wire up the input jacks like the original Fender schematic shows? How does input #1 work?

FYI, Mojotone sells a 5F11 kit. It adds a 1M grid leak resistor to the input cap scheme. It helps with one problem I used to have with the vintage scheme. (It's been a few years, so I hope I remember the particulars right.)

I was playing a Harmony-style guitar. On this guitar, the pickup hot leads ran to the wiper of the volume pot instead of to the "top" of the pot. With that guitar plugged into the #1 input on a 5F11, anytime I rolled the volume control down, the tone would become complete mud. So I had to plug into the #2 input.

Adding the 1M grid leak resistor eliminates that problem. (So does rewiring the guitar so the pickup hots go to the volume pot "tops"!)

I think there was another question about whether the stock scheme would lead to an attenuated signal vs. with the more familiar input scheme of, say, a brown Princeton. In my experience, there is no noticeable attenuation--just that funky response to some guitar wiring.

 

[Wally]

The 6g2 is a great amp.....and as we see has its roots in the 5F11. All Princetons from then on have similarities to that tweed amp....as does the Super Champ since it is a hot-Roddenberry Princeton Reverb.
I treat a 6G2 as I would a 5E3....I turn them up. That gives one hot, lively cleans and overdrive at the same volumes just by controlling the guitar output. The natural compression of these circuits yield this. If I am looking for nothing but clean, I would look at a bigger amp. Then, choosing the type of clean is the question. Tweed? Which tweed? Brown? Which brown? Things get ‘GASsy’, and one wants it all!!!!
Have fun on the search.

Regarding the input on the 5F11, the number 1 input is at just under 24kohm of resistance......hotter to the tube than the 6g2 scheme’s 34k. I never ran into any issues with the 5af11’s inputs....work the way I expect an amp to work.

 

[Mike Eskimo]

A non reverb Princeton might be what your after. Without the reverb and associated stages, this amp stays clean all the way up the dial.

If you're looking for a non-reverb Princeton, here you go (no affiliation)
https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...inceton-non-reverb-700.2047958/#post-28662706

This: Silverface Non-reverb Princeton. With the mid pot/raw deal.

Super cheap as well.


So versatile , stays clean all the way up - if you want it to, best pedal platform on the planet.

 

[King Fan]

I treat a 6G2 as I would a 5E3....I turn them up. That gives one hot, lively cleans and overdrive at the same volumes just by controlling the guitar output. The natural compression of these circuits yield this. If I am looking for nothing but clean, I would look at a bigger amp. Then, choosing the type of clean is the question. Tweed? Which tweed? Brown? Which brown?

Wally, as usual, gets it just right. IIRC he always emphasizes pick attack and the guitar volume knob. WhoaTele, your note that you're looking for a tone between tweed and BF is also helpful. The fact you *like* your 5e3 tells us you're not one of those clean freaks who needs stainless steel cleans. If you can get your kind of tones from a 5e3, I'm wrong to discourage you looking at brownface.

Yes, Brown is a separate country between tweed and BF -- and not just a halfway point, but a whole separate rich tone territory.

So let me say again a 6G2 isn't a dirt machine. It just rides the curl where breakup starts most of the way to shore. IMHO, my little Princeton family (5f2a, 6g2, PR) do *overdrive* for a good way up the dial before they do dirt per se. All three have 'sweet' OD, but in very different ways.

So if you like your 5e3 and want something gutsier and warmer than BF cleans, talking to Jim about a ChocoPrince variant is smart.

Of course, if I wanted *iconic* brownface cleans I might ask Jim if he could build something close to a 6G11 or 6G11a -- how do you feel about the cleans on 'Sultans of Swing'?

 

[Wally]

Turn a 6G2 up and put a humbucker through it. It rips like a big Marshall at a more modest volume, ime. The 6G3 Deluxe is in the same vein...but more of it. That simple one pot tone stack doesn’t rob gain as does the more complex tone stacks.....lively cleans and great overdrive.

 

[fretWalkr]

My '62 Princeton stays clean all the way. I once put a master volume on it which turned out to be a waste of time...it never really broke up the way a Super Reverb does. It does seem to "punchier" as it gets louder, though. I knew a guy who used a 6G2 head and 4x12 Marshall cab. It sounded absolutely amazing: huge, fat, and punchy.